October 2016 - DeTomaso - detomasolist.com

NPC: Ford GT Engine/Trans combo- Ford Racing number??
by steven.liebenow＠att.net 03 Oct '16

03 Oct '16

Guys, I thought my steel sieve brain saw something somewhere about a "crate" style engine/trans combo for the new Ford GT's (Pre V6 twin hairblower version) available from Ford Racing....... I can't find where I thought I saw it....... and the internet is a black pile of poo on the subject...... Would also consider a 5.0 dual cam/conventional 6spd thing too.....just in case anyone has any wish books lying around with greasy pages..... Ciao! Steve Guys, I thought my steel sieve brain saw something somewhere about a "crate" style engine/trans combo for the new Ford GT's (Pre V6 twin hairblower version) available from Ford Racing....... I can't find where I thought I saw it....... and the internet is a black pile of poo on the subject...... Would also consider a 5.0 dual cam/conventional 6spd thing too.....just in case anyone has any wish books lying around with greasy pages..... Ciao! Steve

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Re: [DeTomaso] Virus through FB from Charles Macall or Tommy Gunnerson
by bill＠incendium.com 03 Oct '16

03 Oct '16

I'm part of the hack also. Julian as well keeps sending me a bosgus message CheersBill MooreCalgary -------- Original message --------From: bill gaino <gaino(a)earthlink.net> Date: 2016-10-03 2:52 PM (GMT-07:00) To: poca list <detomaso(a)poca.com>, POCA list <detomaso(a)detomasolist.com> Subject: [DeTomaso] Virus through FB from Charles Macall or Tommy Gunnerson If you are friends with either of these two, Don't open a Facebook messiger attachment acting like a video with your profile pic on it. Sombody got hacked. Bill 1362 https://www.facebook.com/pages/slickpaintcom/129049637149634?ref=ts&fref=ts If you want it slick. www.slickpaint.com like us on facebook _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. I'm part of the hack also. Julian as well keeps sending me a bosgus message Cheers Bill Moore Calgary -------- Original message -------- From: bill gaino <gaino(a)earthlink.net> Date: 2016-10-03 2:52 PM (GMT-07:00) To: poca list <detomaso(a)poca.com>, POCA list <detomaso(a)detomasolist.com> Subject: [DeTomaso] Virus through FB from Charles Macall or Tommy Gunnerson If you are friends with either of these two, Don't open a Facebook messiger attachment acting like a video with your profile pic on it. Sombody got hacked. Bill 1362 https://www.facebook.com/pages/slickpaintcom/129049637149634?ref=ts&fre f=ts If you want it slick. www.slickpaint.com like us on facebook _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.

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New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan
by Stephen 03 Oct '16

03 Oct '16

For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open. Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening. Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM. So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool. Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient. Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit. Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way. I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE. I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed. With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm! After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds. When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator. Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator. The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side. I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article. I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still. Stephen Nelson For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open. Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening. Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM. So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool. Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient. Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit. Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way. I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE. I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed. With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm! After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds. When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator. Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator. The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side. I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article. I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still. Stephen Nelson References 1. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK

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Looking for a driver type Pantera for a friend.
by Corey Price 02 Oct '16

02 Oct '16

All, I've been asked to put out the "feelers" for a Pantera in decent condition. A local friend of mine is looking to either sell his 1971 Boss 351 Mustang and buy a Pantera or trade the Boss for a Pantera. I'll point him to the usual places to look. Given the condition of his car, I would think he's in the $50k to $60k price range. He wants to buy a local car, but I know almost all of the cars in our area and none are currently for sale. Corey All, I've been asked to put out the "feelers" for a Pantera in decent condition.A A local friend of mine is looking to either sell his 1971 Boss 351 Mustang and buy a Pantera or trade the Boss for a Pantera. A I'll point him to the usual places to look.A Given the condition of his car, I would think he's in the $50k to $60k price range.A He wants to buy a local car, but I know almost all of the cars in our area and none are currently for sale. Corey

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Re: [DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 147, Issue 36
by jderyke＠aol.com 02 Oct '16

02 Oct '16

To: LSJ <lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> Cc: detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com, JFFR <pantera(a)vtc.net RE Message 1 Message: 1Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:09:07 -0400 From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman(a)gmail.com> To: LSJ <lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com>, JFFR <pantera(a)vtc.net> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351C Engine Weight Savings Message-ID: <4F4A71EC-CF4D-4036-9E1C-D26B07DB07BC(a)gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I think someone else already said this,... Jack did an excellent analysis of weight savings. It's a lot harder than you would think. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:56 PM, LSJ <lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Will, thank you for the stock block weight. > > So there is an approx. 46 lbs reduction for the aluminum block. > 70 lbs for Al heads? > 20-30 lbs for Al intake? > > Maybe another 30lbs saved with Al water pump, Al timing cover, smaller Al air cleaner, switch to headers, Al valve covers, etc. > > Maybe more? > > We're getting to 200lbs pretty quickly. > > Swap to a Lithium battery (minus 35lbs), one piece race seats (minus 40 lbs), and back to Magnesium wheels (minus 40lbs) and there is probably a lot more that can be done without really being noticeable (except the seats)? > > Is there potentially 300lbs that can be taken out of an otherwise completely stock looking Pantera? > > LSJ > > central > wines-spirits est 1934 > > 625 e street nw > washington, dc 20004 > central wines-spirits est 1934 625 e street nw washington, dc 20004 [1]centralwines.com [2]facebook.com/CentralLiquors 202-737-2800 I don't think you can pull quite 200 lbs out of an iron 351-C. I've spent a good portion of 30 years lightening up our street Pantera L. Although it looks stock on the exterior except for a Revson chin-spoiler, the car in fact now weighs around 2690 lbs ready to drive, and it still has the 351-C block in there along with stereo, heater & A/C. Only the heater is stock. In 1981 when I started this li'il hobby, the car weighed 3250 lbs during a tech session on Longacre scales. So- a stock displacement 351-C weighs about 575 lbs fully assembled (guesses vary) and its possible to lower that to around 425 lbs. The Auto Industry reckons that removing weight from a design already in in production costs around $100/lb removed. The Aerospace industry estimates far more cost per lb. removed. They are both correct if you count labor/hr as well as parts changed or redesigned. J DeRyke To: LSJ <[1]lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> Cc: [2]detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com, JFFR <[3]pantera(a)vtc.net RE Message 1 Message: 1Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:09:07 -0400 From: Will Kooiman <[4]will.kooiman(a)gmail.com> To: LSJ <[5]lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "[6]detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com>, JFFR <[8]pantera(a)vtc.net> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351C Engine Weight Savings Message-ID: <4F4A71EC-CF4D-4036-9E1C-[9]D26B07DB07BC(a)gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I think someone else already said this,... Jack did an excellent analysis of weight savings. It's a lot harder than you would think. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:56 PM, LSJ <[10]lashdeep(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Will, thank you for the stock block weight. > > So there is an approx. 46 lbs reduction for the aluminum block. > 70 lbs for Al heads? > 20-30 lbs for Al intake? > > Maybe another 30lbs saved with Al water pump, Al timing cover, smaller Al air cleaner, switch to headers, Al valve covers, etc. > > Maybe more? > > We're getting to 200lbs pretty quickly. > > Swap to a Lithium battery (minus 35lbs), one piece race seats (minus 40 lbs), and back to Magnesium wheels (minus 40lbs) and there is probably a lot more that can be done without really being noticeable (except the seats)? > > Is there potentially 300lbs that can be taken out of an otherwise completely stock looking Pantera? > > LSJ > > central > wines-spirits est 1934 > > 625 e street nw > washington, dc 20004 > central wines-spirits est 1934 625 e street nw washington, dc 20004 [1]centralwines.com [2]facebook.com/CentralLiquors 202-737-2800 I don't think you can pull quite 200 lbs out of an iron 351-C. I've spent a good portion of 30 years lightening up our street Pantera L. Although it looks stock on the exterior except for a Revson chin-spoiler, the car in fact now weighs around 2690 lbs ready to drive, and it still has the 351-C block in there along with stereo, heater & A/C. Only the heater is stock. In 1981 when I started this li'il hobby, the car weighed 3250 lbs during a tech session on Longacre scales. So- a stock displacement 351-C weighs about 575 lbs fully assembled (guesses vary) and its possible to lower that to around 425 lbs. The Auto Industry reckons that removing weight from a design already in in production costs around $100/lb removed. The Aerospace industry estimates far more cost per lb. removed. They are both correct if you count labor/hr as well as parts changed or redesigned. J DeRyke References 1. mailto:lashdeep@yahoo.com 2. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:pantera@vtc.net 4. mailto:will.kooiman@gmail.com 5. mailto:lashdeep@yahoo.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:pantera@vtc.net 9. mailto:D26B07DB07BC@gmail.com 10. mailto:lashdeep@yahoo.com

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Re: [DeTomaso] Heater tubes
by Tomas Gunnarsson 01 Oct '16

01 Oct '16

No matter how you cut them you have to open the top of the center tunnel underneath the console to get to the spot welded brackets that hold the pipes to the inside of the tunnel wall. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso [detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com] Sent: 30/9/2016 7:30:41 AM To: rob@dumoulins.net;dkohair@comcast.net Cc: detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Heater tubes In a message dated 9/29/16 18 22 40, rob(a)dumoulins.net writes: > No! Cut the old tubes out. New tubes from vendors are pre-cut into 2 > pieces > with rubber connectors. Might as well get new gaskets for the frame rail > holes while you are at it. Getting those installed around the tubes and > staying in the holes was the hardest part. > >>>Rob, I suspect you have issued the right answer, to the wrong question. :>) Your answer seems to be addressing the radiator pipes, and it's right on. But he is asking about the HEATER pipes inside the cabin. They are secured with clamps that are spot-welded to the inside of the chassis. I have read others here describing how they replaced them, but I am fairly certain it's impossible to install new pipes with the engine in place. Removing the old ones can be done though, although it usually involves cutting them out in small pieces. Then you can run long lengths of heater hose in lieu of the metal pipes (sub-optimal solution). Mike No matter how you cut them you have to open the top of the center tunnel underneath the console to get to the spot welded brackets that hold the pipes to the inside of the tunnel wall. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso [detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com] Sent: 30/9/2016 7:30:41 AM To: rob@dumoulins.net;dkohair@comcast.net Cc: detomaso(a)server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Heater tubes In a message dated 9/29/16 18 22 40, rob(a)dumoulins.net writes: > No! Cut the old tubes out. New tubes from vendors are pre-cut into 2 > pieces > with rubber connectors. Might as well get new gaskets for the frame rail > holes while you are at it. Getting those installed around the tubes and > staying in the holes was the hardest part. > >>>Rob, I suspect you have issued the right answer, to the wrong question. :>) Your answer seems to be addressing the radiator pipes, and it's right on. But he is asking about the HEATER pipes inside the cabin. They are secured with clamps that are spot-welded to the inside of the chassis. I have read others here describing how they replaced them, but I am fairly certain it's impossible to install new pipes with the engine in place. Removing the old ones can be done though, although it usually involves cutting them out in small pieces. Then you can run long lengths of heater hose in lieu of the metal pipes (sub-optimal solution). Mike

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