[DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Mon Nov 21 11:52:08 EST 2022
I'm actually heavily involved in EV battery recycling currently, my data suggests the Honda Insight is a Nickel Metal Hydride battery, which are much more prone to conditioning over time than Li-ion.
The typical EV Li-ion battery is good for 3,000 charges, that is close to 1 million miles assuming a 300-mile range. At the end of EV life 60-70% capacity threshold there will still be short commuters that are willing to live with the reduced range, alternatively there is already a growing industry for second life repurposing of batteries for stationery (UPS backup) type applications where charge & discharge is infrequent.
As Jeff sated there are rapid advancements in battery technology, the key is making them cost effective to mass produce. That said with the number of new Gigafactories coming online in the US it will be a while before the industry switches to a whole new battery chemistry, more likely to be adopted and proven by the niche players initially.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 4:28 AM
To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
The battery life/cost turned me off. Even if you take it to the extreme (my Honda Insight), it would still have been cheaper to buy a normal compact.
The car was $20K in 2006. The battery replacement cost at the dealer was $4K, and it would last about 70,000 miles.
When the car was new, it would do about 75mpg. When the battery was dead, it would do about 55-60mpg. As the car aged, it lost about 5-10mpg. The lifetime mpg was something like 55mpg for 250K miles and 4 battery packs (replaced 3 times, and the last one was dead when we traded it in).
The battery part of the hybrid added about 15-20mpg. It was drivable with a dead battery, but it was really slow.
This was with a lithium-ion battery pack, and unless I'm missing something, the current "improved" battery is still a lithium-ion battery. Maybe they are calling 70K miles unlimited life.
That being said, I recently rode in a friend's Tesla Model S dual motor. It is impressive. I would love to have one - but not because it's cheaper or because it's better for the environment.
On 11/20/22, 12:17 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jeff Detrich" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Agree that there are many differentA perspectives and anecdotal
evidence,A as there shouldA be. My take is that development of EVs and
development of the electric grid to support them need to happen in
parallel. Doing everything linearly will take too much time. And one
thing that is really helping is technological advancement inA the
competitive free market sector, esp for batteries. Repairable
batteries, quick charge batteries, cheaper batteries, less rare metal
batteries, higher capacity batteries, renewableA energy storage
batteries are all on the horizon. Expect hiccups along the way.A But
in the meantime, if you can't justify the technology now, hybrids might
be an alternative. A friend in Phoenix bought a Lexus NX hybrid SUV
late last year and is getting over 40 mpg in town vs 26 in the
non-hybrid.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 3:41 PM Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A I wonder if we will ever hear the truth any more?A Listening
to both
A A sides, it sounds like one is in an alternative universe.A It
seems like
A A electric cars can be a good thing for people with a short
enough
A A commute to do it all electric, but will the saving on gas ever
make up
A A for the high initial cost?A I'm driving a car I bought 3 years
old off
A A a lease, and it has cost me a fraction of the cost of an EV,
but I only
A A commute about 50 miles a week. An EV would never be cost
effective for
A A me.
A A The batteries are claimed to last almost forever, but why do
they last
A A so long in a car, but not in anything else?A Is it the better
A A management?A All the rechargeable lithium battery tools I have
seem to
A A have have specific charging strategies, and say the batteries
don't
A A like heat.A Does this apply to EVs, and if you live in Phoenix
the
A A batteries will have a short life?
A A A friends hybrid battery failed, and even a rebuilt battery was
A A expensive.A With synthetic oil, my past and present cars seem
to run
A A for every, just a rebuilt transmission at 100,000 miles, half
the $s of
A A a rebuilt EV battery.
A A I don't know if this is a reliable souse, but maybe?
A
A [1][2]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.consumeraffairs.com%2Fautomotive%2Fev-battery-replac&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cb7ef708845db40ad71fd08dacbbbee8e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638046305332975670%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Rabk4vYkXpVXv0ODBgWP1%2F78v%2Fabp%2F4y7Uz6riNAQyM%3D&reserved=0
ement-co
A A st.html
A A On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 06:45:35 AM PST, B Hower via
DeTomaso
A A <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A FWIWA __A Electric Cars:
A
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-------------- next part --------------
I'm actually heavily involved in EV battery recycling currently, my
data suggests the Honda Insight is a Nickel Metal Hydride battery,
which are much more prone to conditioning over time than Li-ion.
The typical EV Li-ion battery is good for 3,000 charges, that is close
to 1 million miles assuming a 300-mile range. At the end of EV life
60-70% capacity threshold there will still be short commuters that are
willing to live with the reduced range, alternatively there is already
a growing industry for second life repurposing of batteries for
stationery (UPS backup) type applications where charge & discharge is
infrequent.
As Jeff sated there are rapid advancements in battery technology, the
key is making them cost effective to mass produce. That said with the
number of new Gigafactories coming online in the US it will be a while
before the industry switches to a whole new battery chemistry, more
likely to be adopted and proven by the niche players initially.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 4:28 AM
To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No Pantera Content / Elect, Cars
The battery life/cost turned me off. Even if you take it to the
extreme (my Honda Insight), it would still have been cheaper to buy a
normal compact.
The car was $20K in 2006. The battery replacement cost at the dealer
was $4K, and it would last about 70,000 miles.
When the car was new, it would do about 75mpg. When the battery was
dead, it would do about 55-60mpg. As the car aged, it lost about
5-10mpg. The lifetime mpg was something like 55mpg for 250K miles and
4 battery packs (replaced 3 times, and the last one was dead when we
traded it in).
The battery part of the hybrid added about 15-20mpg. It was drivable
with a dead battery, but it was really slow.
This was with a lithium-ion battery pack, and unless I'm missing
something, the current "improved" battery is still a lithium-ion
battery. Maybe they are calling 70K miles unlimited life.
That being said, I recently rode in a friend's Tesla Model S dual
motor. It is impressive. I would love to have one - but not because
it's cheaper or because it's better for the environment.
On 11/20/22, 12:17 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jeff Detrich"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Agree that there are many differentA perspectives and anecdotal
evidence,A as there shouldA be. My take is that development of
EVs and
development of the electric grid to support them need to happen
in
parallel. Doing everything linearly will take too much time. And
one
thing that is really helping is technological advancement inA
the
competitive free market sector, esp for batteries. Repairable
batteries, quick charge batteries, cheaper batteries, less rare
metal
batteries, higher capacity batteries, renewableA energy storage
batteries are all on the horizon. Expect hiccups along the
way.A But
in the meantime, if you can't justify the technology now,
hybrids might
be an alternative. A friend in Phoenix bought a Lexus NX hybrid
SUV
late last year and is getting over 40 mpg in town vs 26 in the
non-hybrid.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 3:41 PM Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A I wonder if we will ever hear the truth any more?A
Listening
to both
A A sides, it sounds like one is in an alternative
universe.A It
seems like
A A electric cars can be a good thing for people with a short
enough
A A commute to do it all electric, but will the saving on gas
ever
make up
A A for the high initial cost?A I'm driving a car I bought 3
years
old off
A A a lease, and it has cost me a fraction of the cost of an
EV,
but I only
A A commute about 50 miles a week. An EV would never be cost
effective for
A A me.
A A The batteries are claimed to last almost forever, but why
do
they last
A A so long in a car, but not in anything else?A Is it the
better
A A management?A All the rechargeable lithium battery tools
I have
seem to
A A have have specific charging strategies, and say the
batteries
don't
A A like heat.A Does this apply to EVs, and if you live in
Phoenix
the
A A batteries will have a short life?
A A A friends hybrid battery failed, and even a rebuilt
battery was
A A expensive.A With synthetic oil, my past and present cars
seem
to run
A A for every, just a rebuilt transmission at 100,000 miles,
half
the $s of
A A a rebuilt EV battery.
A A I don't know if this is a reliable souse, but maybe?
A
A
[1][2]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
Fwww.consumeraffairs.com%2Fautomotive%2Fev-battery-replac&data=05%7
C01%7C%7Cb7ef708845db40ad71fd08dacbbbee8e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaa
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LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&
amp;sdata=Rabk4vYkXpVXv0ODBgWP1%2F78v%2Fabp%2F4y7Uz6riNAQyM%3D&rese
rved=0
ement-co
A A st.html
A A On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 06:45:35 AM PST, B
Hower via
DeTomaso
A A <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A FWIWA __A Electric Cars:
A
A
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Ftwitter.com%2Fduty2warn%2Fstatus%2F1593613166172246017%3Fs%3D2&dat
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