[DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Thu Aug 19 17:18:17 EDT 2021
An old racer that used to crew for me always said there is no such thing as a 'race ready' race car; any new owner should immediately tear it apart on acquisition to verify every inch of it and put it back together for peace of mind prior to hitting the track.
My first FA a '90H Reynard was purchased out of a supposedly reputable shop in Portland via eBay, there was a lot of back and forth with questions etc. prior to bidding with assurances it was complete and race ready, albeit had been part of a private collection for many years. When it arrived, we immediately knew we had been duped as the gear selector was not connected at the gearbox, all transaxle internals missing! The seller did manage to come through with the bespoke selector fork and fortunately the gear sets were a standard Hewland Mk5.
Julian
________________________________
From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:48 AM
To: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola T324 Formula Super Vee. We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not being able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our visual inspection at the auction. The engine alone was worth $9K, and we were able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that been modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's. All the parts were there, and it drove on to the auction block. We decided to bid on it, since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a good class/car for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig as a 3rd car to take to the races.
Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right before the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and outbid us, and another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't going to let that happen. We ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it cost me over $30,000 to buy that car. We got it back to the race shop, and the tub was a disaster. It had not been drilled out, bonded, and riveted in decades - but in fact all the parts were there and the engine ran well. Many hours of work later, we had the tub apart, but, we are a very very long way from having it done.
Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done restoring the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth $25,000, if we are lucky. Our investment will be well north of $50,000, not including shop labor.
That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we buy at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we like the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught up in the moment. So, I just have to stay away.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com<http://www.patentit.com/>
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E. Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
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On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com<mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com>> wrote:
Steve,
You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he had to sell it. It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get $180k for it.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com<mailto:stevelisa at patentit.com>> wrote:
I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the major auction houses. I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.
I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent further mistakes.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com<http://www.patentit.com/>
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E. Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Mike,
Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out the
owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help the car
get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a future
auction having now established a fictitious perceived value that will
help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
intervention.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com<mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Julian,
As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold. I will
believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will stand on
my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly no
evidence to support that contention.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
wrote:
>
> Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm just
surprised the
> lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
>
> Julian
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com<mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
> To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>
> Julian,
> Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth far more
than
> a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a modified one,
> don't wreck an unmodified one.
> Mike
> Sent from my iPad
>>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now comprised
> of a
>> heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no appreciation
> of
>> the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually drive it,
> only
>> it's originality and potential for investment growth. By that same
>> token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are prepared to
>> shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
> counterparts
>> due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little biased on
> a
>> very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think it's
>> predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more than a
>> modified one.
>>
>> Julian
>>
> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf
> of
>> Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
>> To: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>>
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>>
>> All,
>> There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was overlooked in the
>> Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
>> This car:
>> [1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> Sold for $78k.
>> Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people were
> willing
>> to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay for a
> GT5
>> conversion! This just highlights what I've said for years--if you
> are
>> considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or GT5-S or
> GT/4
>> configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost of the
>> conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in value, for
> an
>> all-in cost of $40-60k.
>> If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself and the
> world
>> a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks like a
> really
>> nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister Widebody.
> And
>> it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger (and
>> deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose not to hack
>> your car and instead sold it and bought one already done, you would
>> likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your pocket!
>> Mike
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1.
> [1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1.
[1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
> 2. [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
References
1. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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-------------- next part --------------
An old racer that used to crew for me always said there is no such
thing as a 'race ready' race car; any new owner should immediately tear
it apart on acquisition to verify every inch of it and put it back
together for peace of mind prior to hitting the track.
My first FA a '90H Reynard was purchased out of a supposedly reputable
shop in Portland via eBay, there was a lot of back and forth with
questions etc. prior to bidding with assurances it was complete and
race ready, albeit had been part of a private collection for many
years. When it arrived, we immediately knew we had been duped as the
gear selector was not connected at the gearbox, all transaxle internals
missing! The seller did manage to come through with the bespoke
selector fork and fortunately the gear sets were a standard Hewland
Mk5.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:48 AM
To: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; De Tomaso Forum
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola
T324 Formula Super Vee. We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not
being able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our
visual inspection at the auction. The engine alone was worth $9K, and
we were able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that
been modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's. All the
parts were there, and it drove on to the auction block. We decided to
bid on it, since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a
good class/car for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig
as a 3rd car to take to the races.
Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right
before the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and
outbid us, and another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't going to let
that happen. We ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it cost
me over $30,000 to buy that car. We got it back to the race shop, and
the tub was a disaster. It had not been drilled out, bonded, and
riveted in decades - but in fact all the parts were there and the
engine ran well. Many hours of work later, we had the tub apart, but,
we are a very very long way from having it done.
Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done
restoring the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth
$25,000, if we are lucky. Our investment will be well north of
$50,000, not including shop labor.
That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we
buy at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we
like the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught
up in the moment. So, I just have to stay away.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW <[3]mikeldrew at aol.com>
wrote:
Steve,
You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free
auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus
commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he
had to sell it. It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get
$180k for it.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa <[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
wrote:
I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the
major auction houses. I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which
draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.
I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent
further mistakes.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
[5]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift
<[6]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike,
Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out
the
owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help the
car
get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a future
auction having now established a fictitious perceived value that
will
help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
intervention.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: MICHAEL DREW <[7]mikeldrew at aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
To: Julian Kift <[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Cc: De Tomaso Forum <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Julian,
As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold. I
will
believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will
stand on
my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly no
evidence to support that contention.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift
<[10]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm just
surprised the
> lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
>
> Julian
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Mike Drew <[11]mikeldrew at aol.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
> To: Julian Kift <[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>
> Julian,
> Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth far
more
than
> a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a modified
one,
> don't wreck an unmodified one.
> Mike
> Sent from my iPad
>>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift
<[14]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now
comprised
> of a
>> heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no
appreciation
> of
>> the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually
drive it,
> only
>> it's originality and potential for investment growth. By that
same
>> token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are
prepared to
>> shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
> counterparts
>> due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little
biased on
> a
>> very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think
it's
>> predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more
than a
>> modified one.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>
__________________________________________________________________
>>
>> From: DeTomaso <[15]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>
on behalf
> of
>> Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
>> To: De Tomaso Forum <[17]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>>
>> All,
>> There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was overlooked
in the
>> Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
>> This car:
>>
[1][18]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
a/
>> Sold for $78k.
>> Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people
were
> willing
>> to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay
for a
> GT5
>> conversion! This just highlights what I've said for
years--if you
> are
>> considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or
GT5-S or
> GT/4
>> configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost of
the
>> conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in value,
for
> an
>> all-in cost of $40-60k.
>> If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself and
the
> world
>> a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks like a
> really
>> nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister
Widebody.
> And
>> it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger (and
>> deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose not
to hack
>> your car and instead sold it and bought one already done, you
would
>> likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your
pocket!
>> Mike
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1.
>
[1][19]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
a/
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [20]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>
[2][21]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future
members of
the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1.
[1][22]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
a/
> 2.
[2][23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
References
1.
[24]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
2. [25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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