[DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Dave Londry
davel at trguys.com
Thu Aug 19 14:15:30 EDT 2021
That's a very , very honest description of one of life's great D.F.
moments, Steve.
We all have them, but sharing yours helps all the rest of us avoid that
partcular one.
Thanks
Dave
On 2021-08-19 8:48 a.m., Steve Lisa wrote:
> Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola
> T324 Formula Super Vee.A We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not
> being able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our
> visual inspection at the auction.A The engine alone was worth $9K, and
> we were able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that
> been modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's.A All the
> parts were there, and it drove on to the auction block.A We decided to
> bid on it, since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a
> good class/car for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig
> as a 3rd car to take to the races.A
> Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right
> before the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and
> outbid us, and another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't goingA to
> let that happen.A We ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it
> cost me over $30,000 to buy that car.A We got it back to the race
> shop, and the tub was a disaster.A It had not been drilled out,
> bonded, and riveted in decades - but in fact all the parts were there
> and the engine ran well.A Many hours of work later, we had the tub
> apart, but, we are a very very long way from having it done.A A
> Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done
> restoring the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth
> $25,000, if we are lucky.A Our investment will be well north of
> $50,000, not including shop labor.
> That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we
> buy at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we
> like the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught
> up in the moment.A So, I just have to stay away.A A
> A A
> Regards,A
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
> Direct: 480-442-0297
> [1]www.PatentIt.com
> Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
> |A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
> you.
>
> Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
>
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW <[3]mikeldrew at aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> i>>?
> i>>?
> i>>?Steve,
> You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free
> auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus
> commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he
> had to sell it.A It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get
> $180k for it.A
> Mike
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa <[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
> wrote:
>
> i>>?
> I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the
> major auction houses.A I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which
> draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.A A
> I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent
> further mistakes.A A
> Regards,A
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
> Direct: 480-442-0297
> [5]www.PatentIt.com
> Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
> |A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
> you.
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift
> <[6]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A Mike,
> A A Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out
> the
> A A owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
> A A sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help
> the car
> A A get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a
> future
> A A auction having now established a fictitious perceived value
> that will
> A A help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
> A A intervention.
> A A Julian
> A A
> A __________________________________________________________________
> A A From: MICHAEL DREW <[7]mikeldrew at aol.com>
> A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
> A A To: Julian Kift <[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
> A A Julian,
> A A As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold.
> I will
> A A believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will
> stand on
> A A my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly
> no
> A A evidence to support that contention.
> A A Mike
> A A Sent from my iPhone
> A A > On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift
> <[10]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A >
> A A >A A Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm
> just
> A A surprised the
> A A >A A lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
> A A >
> A A >A A Julian
> A A >
> A
> A __________________________________________________________________
> A A >
> A A >A A From: Mike Drew <[11]mikeldrew at aol.com>
> A A >A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
> A A >A A To: Julian Kift <[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> A A >A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum
> <[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> A A >A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
> A A >
> A A >A A Julian,
> A A >A A Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth
> far more
> A A than
> A A >A A a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a
> modified one,
> A A >A A don't wreck an unmodified one.
> A A >A A Mike
> A A >A A Sent from my iPad
> A A >>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift
> <[14]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> A A >>A A wrote:
> A A >>
> A A >>A A Mike,
> A A >>
> A A >>A The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now
> comprised
> A A >A A of a
> A A >>A heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no
> appreciation
> A A >A A of
> A A >>A the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually
> drive it,
> A A >A A only
> A A >>A it's originality and potential for investment growth. By
> that same
> A A >>A token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are
> prepared to
> A A >>A shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
> A A >A A counterparts
> A A >>A due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little
> biased on
> A A >A A a
> A A >>A very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think
> it's
> A A >>A predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more
> than a
> A A >>A modified one.
> A A >>
> A A >>A Julian
> A A >>
> A A >A
> A __________________________________________________________________
> A A >>
> A A >>A From: DeTomaso
> <[15]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
> A A >A A of
> A A >>A Mike Drew via DeTomaso
> <[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> A A >>A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
> A A >>A To: De Tomaso Forum <[17]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> A A >>A Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
> A A >>
> A A >>A All,
> A A >>A There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was
> overlooked in the
> A A >>A Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
> A A >>A This car:
> A A >>A
> [1][18]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
> a/
> A A >>A Sold for $78k.
> A A >>A Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people
> were
> A A >A A willing
> A A >>A to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay
> for a
> A A >A A GT5
> A A >>A conversion!A This just highlights what I've said for
> years--if you
> A A >A A are
> A A >>A considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or
> GT5-S or
> A A >A A GT/4
> A A >>A configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost
> of the
> A A >>A conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in
> value, for
> A A >A A an
> A A >>A all-in cost of $40-60k.
> A A >>A If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself
> and the
> A A >A A world
> A A >>A a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks
> like a
> A A >A A really
> A A >>A nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister
> Widebody.
> A A >A A And
> A A >>A it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger
> (and
> A A >>A deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose
> not to hack
> A A >>A your car and instead sold it and bought one already done,
> you would
> A A >>A likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your
> pocket!
> A A >>A Mike
> A A >>A Sent from my iPad
> A A >>
> A A >> References
> A A >>
> A A >>A 1.
> A A >A
> A [1][19]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
> era/
> A A >> _______________________________________________
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> A A > References
> A A >
> A A >A A 1.
> A
> A [1][22]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
> era/
> A A >A A 2.
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> 18. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
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Skype embeddedspaces
-------------- next part --------------
That's a very , very honest description of one of life's great D.F.
moments, Steve.
We all have them, but sharing yours helps all the rest of us avoid that
partcular one.
Thanks
Dave
On 2021-08-19 8:48 a.m., Steve Lisa wrote:
Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola
T324 Formula Super Vee.A We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not
being able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our
visual inspection at the auction.A The engine alone was worth $9K, and
we were able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that
been modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's.A All the
parts were there, and it drove on to the auction block.A We decided to
bid on it, since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a
good class/car for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig
as a 3rd car to take to the races.A
Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right
before the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and
outbid us, and another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't goingA to
let that happen.A We ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it
cost me over $30,000 to buy that car.A We got it back to the race
shop, and the tub was a disaster.A It had not been drilled out,
bonded, and riveted in decades - but in fact all the parts were there
and the engine ran well.A Many hours of work later, we had the tub
apart, but, we are a very very long way from having it done.A A
Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done
restoring the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth
$25,000, if we are lucky.A Our investment will be well north of
$50,000, not including shop labor.
That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we
buy at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we
like the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught
up in the moment.A So, I just have to stay away.A A
A A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: [1]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW [2]<[3]mikeldrew at aol.com>
wrote:
i>>?
i>>?
i>>?Steve,
You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free
auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus
commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he
had to sell it.A It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get
$180k for it.A
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa [3]<[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
wrote:
i>>?
I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the
major auction houses.A I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which
draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.A A
I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent
further mistakes.A A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: [4]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[5]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift
[5]<[6]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
A A Mike,
A A Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out
the
A A owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
A A sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help
the car
A A get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a
future
A A auction having now established a fictitious perceived value
that will
A A help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
A A intervention.
A A Julian
A A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A From: MICHAEL DREW [6]<[7]mikeldrew at aol.com>
A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
A A To: Julian Kift [7]<[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum [8]<[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A Julian,
A A As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold.
I will
A A believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will
stand on
A A my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly
no
A A evidence to support that contention.
A A Mike
A A Sent from my iPhone
A A > On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift
[9]<[10]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A >
A A >A A Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm
just
A A surprised the
A A >A A lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
A A >
A A >A A Julian
A A >
A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A >
A A >A A From: Mike Drew [10]<[11]mikeldrew at aol.com>
A A >A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
A A >A A To: Julian Kift [11]<[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A >A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum
[12]<[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A >
A A >A A Julian,
A A >A A Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth
far more
A A than
A A >A A a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a
modified one,
A A >A A don't wreck an unmodified one.
A A >A A Mike
A A >A A Sent from my iPad
A A >>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift
[13]<[14]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A >>A A wrote:
A A >>
A A >>A A Mike,
A A >>
A A >>A The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now
comprised
A A >A A of a
A A >>A heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no
appreciation
A A >A A of
A A >>A the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually
drive it,
A A >A A only
A A >>A it's originality and potential for investment growth. By
that same
A A >>A token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are
prepared to
A A >>A shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
A A >A A counterparts
A A >>A due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little
biased on
A A >A A a
A A >>A very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think
it's
A A >>A predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more
than a
A A >>A modified one.
A A >>
A A >>A Julian
A A >>
A A >A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A >>
A A >>A From: DeTomaso
[14]<[15]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
A A >A A of
A A >>A Mike Drew via DeTomaso
[15]<[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >>A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
A A >>A To: De Tomaso Forum [16]<[17]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >>A Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A >>
A A >>A All,
A A >>A There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was
overlooked in the
A A >>A Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
A A >>A This car:
A A >>A
[1][18][17]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
a/
A A >>A Sold for $78k.
A A >>A Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people
were
A A >A A willing
A A >>A to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay
for a
A A >A A GT5
A A >>A conversion!A This just highlights what I've said for
years--if you
A A >A A are
A A >>A considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or
GT5-S or
A A >A A GT/4
A A >>A configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost
of the
A A >>A conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in
value, for
A A >A A an
A A >>A all-in cost of $40-60k.
A A >>A If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself
and the
A A >A A world
A A >>A a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks
like a
A A >A A really
A A >>A nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister
Widebody.
A A >A A And
A A >>A it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger
(and
A A >>A deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose
not to hack
A A >>A your car and instead sold it and bought one already done,
you would
A A >>A likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your
pocket!
A A >>A Mike
A A >>A Sent from my iPad
A A >>
A A >> References
A A >>
A A >>A 1.
A A >A
A [1][19][18]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
era/
A A >> _______________________________________________
A A >>
A A >>
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A A >> DeTomaso mailing list
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A A >
A A > References
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A
A [1][22][21]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
era/
A A >A A 2.
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3. [29]mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
4. [30]mailto:stevelisa at patentit.com
5. [31]http://www.patentit.com/
6. [32]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
7. [33]mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
8. [34]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
9. [35]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. [36]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
11. [37]mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
12. [38]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
13. [39]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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TRGuys.com
[61]davel at trguys.com
Cell 604-721-2278
Skype embeddedspaces
References
1. mailto:SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
2. mailto:[3]mikeldrew at aol.com
3. mailto:[4]stevelisa at patentit.com
4. mailto:SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
5. mailto:[6]julian_kift at hotmail.com
6. mailto:[7]mikeldrew at aol.com
7. mailto:[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com
8. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:[10]julian_kift at hotmail.com
10. mailto:[11]mikeldrew at aol.com
11. mailto:[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com
12. mailto:[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. mailto:[14]julian_kift at hotmail.com
14. mailto:[15]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
15. mailto:[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
16. mailto:[17]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
18. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
19. mailto:20]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
21. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
23. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
25. mailto:26]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
26. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
27. http://www.patentit.com/
28. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
29. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
30. mailto:stevelisa at patentit.com
31. http://www.patentit.com/
32. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
33. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
34. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
35. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
36. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
37. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
38. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
39. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
40. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
41. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
42. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
43. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
44. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
45. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
46. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
47. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
48. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
49. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
50. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
51. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
52. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
53. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
54. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
55. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
56. file://localhost/tmp/tmpMqRnRP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
57. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
58. file://localhost/tmp/tmpMqRnRP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
59. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
60. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
61. mailto:davel at trguys.com
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