[DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
Steve Lisa
stevelisa at patentit.com
Thu Aug 19 11:48:36 EDT 2021
Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola
T324 Formula Super Vee. We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not being
able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our visual
inspection at the auction. The engine alone was worth $9K, and we were
able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that been
modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's. All the parts were
there, and it drove on to the auction block. We decided to bid on it,
since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a good class/car
for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig as a 3rd car to
take to the races.
Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right before
the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and outbid us, and
another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't going to let that happen. We
ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it cost me over $30,000 to
buy that car. We got it back to the race shop, and the tub was a
disaster. It had not been drilled out, bonded, and riveted in decades -
but in fact all the parts were there and the engine ran well. Many hours
of work later, we had the tub apart, but, we are a very very long way from
having it done.
Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done restoring
the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth $25,000, if we
are lucky. Our investment will be well north of $50,000, not including
shop labor.
That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we buy
at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we like
the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught up in the
moment. So, I just have to stay away.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
*The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
*Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
*Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
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On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Steve,
>
> You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free
> auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus
> commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he had to
> sell it. It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get $180k for
> it.
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the
> major auction houses. I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which
> draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.
>
> I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent further
> mistakes.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> *The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
> Direct: 480-442-0297
>
> www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
>
> *Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
> East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> *Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out the
>> owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
>> sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help the car
>> get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a future
>> auction having now established a fictitious perceived value that will
>> help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
>> intervention.
>>
>> Julian
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> From: MICHAEL DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
>> To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>>
>> Julian,
>> As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold. I will
>> believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will stand on
>> my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly no
>> evidence to support that contention.
>> Mike
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> > On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm just
>> surprised the
>> > lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
>> >
>> > Julian
>> >
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> >
>> > From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
>> > To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> > Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>> >
>> > Julian,
>> > Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth far more
>> than
>> > a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a modified one,
>> > don't wreck an unmodified one.
>> > Mike
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Mike,
>> >>
>> >> The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now comprised
>> > of a
>> >> heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no appreciation
>> > of
>> >> the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually drive it,
>> > only
>> >> it's originality and potential for investment growth. By that same
>> >> token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are prepared to
>> >> shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
>> > counterparts
>> >> due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little biased on
>> > a
>> >> very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think it's
>> >> predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more than a
>> >> modified one.
>> >>
>> >> Julian
>> >>
>> > __________________________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
>> behalf
>> > of
>> >> Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
>> >> To: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
>> >>
>> >> All,
>> >> There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was overlooked in the
>> >> Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
>> >> This car:
>> >> [1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> >> Sold for $78k.
>> >> Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people were
>> > willing
>> >> to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay for a
>> > GT5
>> >> conversion! This just highlights what I've said for years--if you
>> > are
>> >> considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or GT5-S or
>> > GT/4
>> >> configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost of the
>> >> conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in value, for
>> > an
>> >> all-in cost of $40-60k.
>> >> If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself and the
>> > world
>> >> a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks like a
>> > really
>> >> nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister Widebody.
>> > And
>> >> it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger (and
>> >> deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose not to hack
>> >> your car and instead sold it and bought one already done, you would
>> >> likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your pocket!
>> >> Mike
>> >> Sent from my iPad
>> >>
>> >> References
>> >>
>> >> 1.
>> > [1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> >> DeTomaso mailing list
>> >> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> >> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >>
>> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> > use the links above.
>> >>
>> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> > any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
>> the
>> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
>> archive
>> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1.
>> [1]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> > 2. [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
>> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>
>
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-------------- next part --------------
Our worst purchase was a "race-ready," "Ez-wider" ex-Howdy Holmes, Lola
T324 Formula Super Vee.A We could tell it wasn't race-ready, but not
being able to drive it and with no recent videos, we were left with our
visual inspection at the auction.A The engine alone was worth $9K, and
we were able to verify that it was indeed "the" ex-Howdy Holmes SV that
been modified to run in Formula Atlantic later in the 70's.A All the
parts were there, and it drove on to the auction block.A We decided to
bid on it, since we were doing more vintage racing and it would be a
good class/car for Tony to drive - plus it would easily fit in our rig
as a 3rd car to take to the races.A
Bidding stalled with us as high bidder at $15,000, and then right
before the hammer dropped, some drunk fool decided to jump in and
outbid us, and another impaired fool (me) decided I wasn't goingA to
let that happen.A We ended at $26,000, and with auction fees/taxes, it
cost me over $30,000 to buy that car.A We got it back to the race
shop, and the tub was a disaster.A It had not been drilled out,
bonded, and riveted in decades - but in fact all the parts were there
and the engine ran well.A Many hours of work later, we had the tub
apart, but, we are a very very long way from having it done.A A
Anyway, when we are finally - years from now -- completely done
restoring the car and get a few races under its belt, it may be worth
$25,000, if we are lucky.A Our investment will be well north of
$50,000, not including shop labor.
That result is not the end of the world, but it will be the last car we
buy at one of the "Scottsdale Auctions" -- which is a shame, because we
like the events and car watching, but have a history of getting caught
up in the moment.A So, I just have to stay away.A A
A A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:37 PM MICHAEL DREW <[3]mikeldrew at aol.com>
wrote:
i>>?
i>>?
i>>?Steve,
You are not alone. A guy arguably let his judgement be impaired by free
auction booze and bought a modified original GT5-S for $319k plus
commission. A few years later Covid kicked his financial butt and he
had to sell it.A It took almost a year to sell and he struggled to get
$180k for it.A
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:56, Steve Lisa <[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
wrote:
i>>?
I have mostly crappy results (some alcohol-induced) buying cars at the
major auction houses.A I think the exception is Bring A Trailer, which
draws comments and history for the cars from those that know it.A A
I have committed to stop drinking at auctions..... to help prevent
further mistakes.A A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[5]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:50 PM Julian Kift
<[6]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
A A Mike,
A A Now that is a theory that I wholly concur with! Having paid out
the
A A owner his reserve after their inept 'modifications' they had no
A A sellers' fees, no buyers commission and every reason to help
the car
A A get as high as possible. I'm betting it will turn up in a
future
A A auction having now established a fictitious perceived value
that will
A A help it ultimately sell for more than it would without that
A A intervention.
A A Julian
A A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A From: MICHAEL DREW <[7]mikeldrew at aol.com>
A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:42 PM
A A To: Julian Kift <[8]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A Julian,
A A As for the lime green car, I'm not convinced it actually sold.
I will
A A believe it when the new owner steps forward. Until then I will
stand on
A A my conviction that Mecum bought it themselves, with admittedly
no
A A evidence to support that contention.
A A Mike
A A Sent from my iPhone
A A > On Aug 18, 2021, at 15:46, Julian Kift
<[10]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A >
A A >A A Uh, not exactly what you said, but close enough. I'm
just
A A surprised the
A A >A A lime green Medum 'modified' car fetched so much
A A >
A A >A A Julian
A A >
A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A >
A A >A A From: Mike Drew <[11]mikeldrew at aol.com>
A A >A A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:32 PM
A A >A A To: Julian Kift <[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A >A A Cc: De Tomaso Forum
<[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A >
A A >A A Julian,
A A >A A Uh...that's exactly what I said. An original car is worth
far more
A A than
A A >A A a modified one. So if you want a modified one, buy a
modified one,
A A >A A don't wreck an unmodified one.
A A >A A Mike
A A >A A Sent from my iPad
A A >>> On Aug 18, 2021, at 11:27, Julian Kift
<[14]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
A A >>A A wrote:
A A >>
A A >>A A Mike,
A A >>
A A >>A The deep pocketed narrow body crowd you speak of are now
comprised
A A >A A of a
A A >>A heavy contingent of investors, who have little to no
appreciation
A A >A A of
A A >>A the width of the body of a Pantera or desire to actually
drive it,
A A >A A only
A A >>A it's originality and potential for investment growth. By
that same
A A >>A token buyers of original Group 4 / GT5 & GT5-S cars are
prepared to
A A >>A shell out more (far deeper pockets) than their narrow body
A A >A A counterparts
A A >>A due to originality plus rarity. Your case seems a little
biased on
A A >A A a
A A >>A very small snapshot of the market, and ultimately, I think
it's
A A >>A predominantly a case of an original Pantera is worth more
than a
A A >>A modified one.
A A >>
A A >>A Julian
A A >>
A A >A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A >>
A A >>A From: DeTomaso
<[15]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
A A >A A of
A A >>A Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >>A Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:19 AM
A A >>A To: De Tomaso Forum <[17]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A >>A Subject: [DeTomaso] One overlooked Pantera sale
A A >>
A A >>A All,
A A >>A There was one Pantera sale that inexplicably was
overlooked in the
A A >>A Hammerprice summary, although it was listed in the app:
A A >>A This car:
A A >>A
[1][18]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-panter
a/
A A >>A Sold for $78k.
A A >>A Let that sink in for a minute. At the same auction, people
were
A A >A A willing
A A >>A to pay $20k more for a CRASHED Pantera than they would pay
for a
A A >A A GT5
A A >>A conversion!A This just highlights what I've said for
years--if you
A A >A A are
A A >>A considering hacking up a Pantera to convert it to GT5 or
GT5-S or
A A >A A GT/4
A A >>A configuration, you have to realize that the $20-30k+ cost
of the
A A >>A conversion will then be coupled with a $20-30k LOSS in
value, for
A A >A A an
A A >>A all-in cost of $40-60k.
A A >>A If you have the hots for a widebody Pantera, do yourself
and the
A A >A A world
A A >>A a favor and buy one already done like this. This looks
like a
A A >A A really
A A >>A nice car, one that you would likely really enjoy, Mister
Widebody.
A A >A A And
A A >>A it would preserve an unmolested car for the much larger
(and
A A >>A deep-pocketed) narrow body crowd. In fact, if you chose
not to hack
A A >>A your car and instead sold it and bought one already done,
you would
A A >>A likely achieve happiness and have an extra $20-30k in your
pocket!
A A >>A Mike
A A >>A Sent from my iPad
A A >>
A A >> References
A A >>
A A >>A 1.
A A >A
A [1][19]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
era/
A A >> _______________________________________________
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
A A >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A >> DeTomaso mailing list
A A >> [20]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
A A >>
[2][21]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
A A >>
A A >> To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
A A etc.)
A A >A A use the links above.
A A >>
A A >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
A A >A A any message posted here to all past, current, or future
members of
A A the
A A >A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to
maintain an
A A archive
A A >A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
A A >
A A > References
A A >
A A >A A 1.
A
A [1][22]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pant
era/
A A >A A 2.
[2][23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
References
A A 1.
[24]https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
A A 2. [25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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6. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
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13. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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18. https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0821-481041/1972-detomaso-pantera/
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