[DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
Steve Lisa
stevelisa at patentit.com
Wed Aug 4 17:46:02 EDT 2021
Thanks for that great information. I am hoping one day to be able to crawl
all over, under, and in one of the factory Group 3 Panteras.
I seem to recall that Mike Higgins here in AZ also had several Pantera's
sitting dusty under tarps in his Tempe shop. I don't recall if they were
racecars -- but knowing they were with Higgins would lead me to believe
they were race cars. I am not sure what happened to those. Anyone know?
There are also, of course, numerous Pantera's racing in the over-the-road
events like the Silver State, but as far as I can tell, none of them are
built to the FIA Group 3 or Group 4 rules.
I do have all the full FIA homologation materials - mostly sent from Mike
Drew and others (thanks!!!). This group is amazing. I had most of the
early ones (1972-1974) translated to English to make sure I was reading
them correctly.
I am sure the Group 4 Pantera's would not be allowed in "HSR Group 3" --
which is where an early 1972-FIA prep Group 3 Pantera is allowed. That
also holds true for SVRA Group 5 - which requires the Pantera to be prepped
"Pre-1973." However, many of the later mods that the FIA allowed for the
Group 3 Pantera's after January 1, 1973, would disqualify even a Group 3
Pantera from racing in SVRA Group 5 -- but most of those mods won't kick it
out of HSR Group 3. The HSR is a little more lax, e.g., even though I did
a brake upgrade, HSR was ok with it. (BTW - my last email with the
pictures of our build mistakenly said the SVRA approved the brake upgrade
-- that was not right -- HSR allowed it, and I am pretty sure that the SVRA
would not).
Anyway, my goal was to back-date my 1973 Pantera to run in accordance with
the December 1972 FIA Group 3 rules, and then to make whatever additional
mods I could get away with that kept me in the spirit of the pre-1973 rules
to prevent from getting kicked into the faster/higher mod groups.
However, the Pantera complying with the "pre-1973" FIA Group 3 rules was
simply no fun to drive. So, I tried to walk the line on further mods.
When someone complains, I will do what it takes to make them happy. So
far, so good.
But, that leads me to the curious question of how many of the "later" mods
after 12/72 were made to the currently-racing or currently-known Group 3
Panteras? Because, at least for the SVRA Group 5, those later mods will
probably kick the FIA GRoup 3 Pantera into the same racing group as the
much faster FIA Group 4 Pantera (SVRA Groups 6, 7, or 10 depending on level
of prep). I am pretty sure that for me to go to an SVRA event and run in
SVRA Group 5, I would need to undo some of the mods I made. Not so for
HSR, which is just thrilled to see a Pantera Group 3 racing (even though it
is customer-built and not a factory one).
Finally, I can't agree with you more regarding the cage. We put a true
racing cage in SN5533 (but limited to the same six points of attachment
allowed by the FIA). I simply won't race with something that isn't safe.
Same with fuel cell, fire system, etc. That is also one reason we decided
to do the brake upgrade, we didn't feel safe racing the original brakes,
and if that keeps us alive and kicked out of SVRA -- but racing HSR -- I am
good with that.
Again, major thanks to this group for helping along the way.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
*The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
*Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
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Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
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On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:16 PM <jderyke at aol.com> wrote:
> FWIW, there are two factory built Gr-3s in the U.S. (one in British
> Columbia, the other in So-Cal). As well as Guy Trigaux's factory GR-4 in N
> Carolina and Les Gray's factory GT-4 in So-Cal. Considering that there were
> only 34 Gr-3s and 14 GR-4/GT-4s ever factory-built, we have a high
> proportion of these rare racers 'locally'. Note also they are all owned by
> POCA members.... The other 12 GR-4s are scattered all over the world- one
> is still in Australia with its original owner from the '70s, I believe.
>
> Steve, do you have the original homologation papers for the Pantera? Makes
> quite interesting reading and maybe could settle arguments with some
> Vintage inspectors. They're all in the POCA Archives along with the
> official 14 pg Gr-3/GR-4 Parts Lists. Note to OEM fanatics: the homologated
> factory roll cage may be desirable for collectors of static displays but if
> you want to drive your racer as it should be driven, it's no longer an
> acceptable safety part in the U.S. The cage's welded tube wall thickness is
> 0.060" while the SCCA requires 0.090" nowadays. Not sure about European
> rules.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
> To: Guy Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com>
> Cc: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>; Claude Dubois <
> claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; List DeTomaso Forum <
> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>;
> rimovp at gmail.com <rimovp at gmail.com>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 8:53 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
>
> Guy,
> If you are racing in the US in the coming months, please keep me posted
> on your plans. Perhaps we can get a common weekend on our
> calendars.
> Have you considered the HSR Classic 24 at Daytona -- coming up in late
> October. We are planning to bring two cars: the Pantera for the HSR
> Sprint races and a Panoz Esperanta GT2 for the 24-hour. Any chance
> you can make it?
> Regards,A
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
> Direct: 480-442-0297
> [1]www.PatentIt.com
> Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656, F: 480.535.6628
> 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
> you.
>
> Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:17 PM Guy Trigaux <[3]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:49 PM Patrick HALS <[4]patrickhals at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, Steve, if you'd race over here with a Pantera in the EU
> classic series, you would quickly realize that self derision is not
> very common, by far.A
> Especially with some ( not all, luckily ) French and German
> drivers...A
> I know I will suffer after these top secret revelations, but that's how
> I feelA !
> Yet, I'll be so glad to race again with those gentlemen, and show them
> my red lights :>))
> Best !A
> Pat
> Candy 2862
> ADA 9628
>
> LeA mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A A 20:19, Steve Lisa
> <[5]stevelisa at patentit.com> a A(c)critA :
>
> Gotta love peopleA with a great talent for self-derision -- if you race
> cars, it's pretty much a requirement.
> Regards,A
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
> Direct: 480-442-0297
> [6]www.PatentIt.com
> Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
> |A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
> you.
>
> Virus-free. [7]www.avg.com
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 11:16 AM alessandro1977621
> <[8]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, that's the one, 2860..
> Finished Le Mans twice, in 72 and 75
> Claude Dubois and Guy Trigaux can rell you stories about their car for
> hours.
> Just ask, they love it, and both are great story tellers, with a
> fantastic sense of humor, skills and self derision
> Pat
> Candy 2862
> Ada 9628
> EnvoyA(c) depuis mon tA(c)lA(c)phone
>
> -------- Message original --------
> DeA : Steve Lisa <[9]stevelisa at patentit.com>
> DateA : mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A 19:58
> AA : Patrick HALS <[10]patrickhals at gmail.com>
> CcA : List DeTomaso Forum <[11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Mike
> Drew <[12]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, [13]rimovp at gmail.com, Guy & Denise
> Trigaux <[14]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
> ObjetA : Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
>
> I found this today
> --A [15]https://www.facebook.com/groups/893004427530930/posts/189880632
> 6950730/
> Regards,A
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
> Direct: 480-442-0297
> [16]www.PatentIt.com
> Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
> |A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
> you.
>
> Virus-free. [17]www.avg.com
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 10:32 AM Patrick HALS
> <[18]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A Hi all,A
> A A I think it must be VIN 2860, one of 14 factoryA cars, which
> was, in
> A A period, belonging to the Belgian team " Team Willeme".A
> A A ThisA car is now the property of Guy Trigaux, and in immaculate
> A A condition.A >>>A I bought the car from Team WillemeA
> December 15 - 1977 . Arrived late in the BeNeLux GR.2 to Gr .5 --
> 1978 Championship due to complete rebuild of the car . Same
> Championship in 1979 : 1st in Gr .4 at the end of the season and 2nd
> in the General Classification ( won by a 935 ) . IA have enjoyed
> the car at VIR , Road Atlanta andA Roebling RoadA hopA(R)ng to
> "test " the new pavement of CMP one of the next months ...A A
> A A Patrick
> A A Candy 2862
> A A ADA 9628
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-------------- next part --------------
Thanks for that great information.A I am hoping one day to be able to
crawl all over, under, and in one of the factory Group 3 Panteras.A
I seem to recall that Mike Higgins here in AZ also had several
Pantera's sitting dusty under tarps in his Tempe shop.A I don't recall
if they were racecars -- but knowing they were with Higgins would lead
me to believe they were race cars.A A I am not sure what happened to
those.A Anyone know?
There are also, of course, numerous Pantera's racing in the
over-the-road events like the Silver State, but as far as I can tell,
none of them are built to the FIA Group 3 or Group 4 rules.A
I do have all the full FIA homologation materials - mostly sent from
Mike Drew and others (thanks!!!).A This group is amazing.A I had most
of the early ones (1972-1974) translated to English to make sure I was
reading them correctly.A A
I am sure the Group 4 Pantera's would not be allowed in "HSR Group 3"
-- which is where an early 1972-FIA prep Group 3 Pantera is allowed.A
That also holds true for SVRA Group 5 - which requires theA Pantera to
be prepped "Pre-1973."A However, many of the later mods that the FIA
allowed for the Group 3 Pantera's after January 1, 1973, would
disqualify even a Group 3 Pantera from racing in SVRA Group 5 -- but
most of those mods won't kick it out of HSR Group 3.A The HSR is a
little more lax, e.g., even though I did a brake upgrade, HSR was ok
with it.A (BTW - my last email with the pictures of our build
mistakenly said the SVRA approved the brake upgrade -- that was not
right -- HSR allowed it, and I am pretty sure that the SVRA would
not).A A
Anyway, my goal was to back-date my 1973 Pantera to run in accordance
with the December 1972 FIA Group 3 rules, and then to make whatever
additional mods I could get away with that kept me in the spirit of the
pre-1973 rules to prevent from getting kicked into theA faster/higher
mod groups.A However,A the Pantera complying with the "pre-1973" FIA
Group 3 rules was simply no fun to drive.A So, I tried to walk the
line on further mods.A When someone complains, I will do what it takes
to make them happy.A So far, so good.A A
But, that leads me to the curious question of how many of the "later"
mods after 12/72 were made to the currently-racing or currently-known
Group 3 Panteras? Because, at least for the SVRA Group 5, those later
mods will probably kick the FIA GRoup 3 Pantera into the same racing
group as the much faster FIA Group 4 Pantera (SVRA Groups 6, 7, or 10
depending on level of prep).A I am pretty sure that for me to go to an
SVRA event and run in SVRA Group 5, I would need to undo some of the
mods I made.A Not so for HSR, which is just thrilled to see a Pantera
Group 3 racing (even though it is customer-built and not a factory
one).A A A A A
Finally, I can't agree with you more regarding the cage.A We put a
true racing cage in SN5533 (but limited to the same six points of
attachment allowed by the FIA).A I simply won't race with something
that isn't safe. Same with fuel cell, fire system, etc.A That is also
one reason we decided to do the brake upgrade, we didn't feel safe
racing the original brakes, and if that keeps us alive and kicked out
of SVRA -- but racing HSR -- I am good with that.
Again, major thanks to this group for helping along the way.
A A
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:16 PM <[3]jderyke at aol.com> wrote:
FWIW, there are two factory built Gr-3s in the U.S. (one in British
Columbia, the other in So-Cal). As well as Guy Trigaux's factory GR-4
in N Carolina and Les Gray's factory GT-4 in So-Cal. Considering that
there were only 34 Gr-3s and 14 GR-4/GT-4s ever factory-built, we have
a high proportion of these rare racers 'locally'.A Note also they are
all owned by POCA members....A A The other 12 GR-4s are scattered all
over the world- one is still in Australia with its original owner from
the '70s, I believe.A
Steve, do you have the original homologation papers for the Pantera?
Makes quite interesting reading and maybe could settle arguments with
some Vintage inspectors. They're all in the POCA Archives along with
the official 14 pg Gr-3/GR-4 Parts Lists. Note to OEM fanatics: the
homologated factory roll cage may be desirable for collectors of static
displays but if you want to drive your racer as it should be driven,
it's no longer an acceptable safety part in the U.S. The cage's welded
tube wall thickness is 0.060" while the SCCA requires 0.090" nowadays.
Not sure about European rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lisa <[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
To: Guy Trigaux <[5]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
Cc: Patrick HALS <[6]patrickhals at gmail.com>; Claude Dubois
<[7]claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; List DeTomaso Forum
<[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Mike Drew
<[9]MikeLDrew at aol.com>; [10]rimovp at gmail.com <[11]rimovp at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
A Guy,
A If you are racing in the US in the coming months, please keep me
posted
A on your plans. Perhaps we can get a common weekend on our
A calendars.
A Have you considered the HSR Classic 24 at Daytona -- coming up in
late
A October. We are planning to bring two cars: the Pantera for the HSR
A Sprint races and a Panoz Esperanta GT2 for the 24-hour.A Any chance
A you can make it?
A Regards,A
A Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
A The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
A Email: [12]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
A Direct: 480-442-0297
A [1][13]www.PatentIt.com
A Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656,A F: 480.535.6628
A A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
A Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357AA |AA F: 312.896.5633AA |AA
A: 55 E.
A Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
A This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
A confidential and privileged information. If you received this email
in
A error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me.
Thank
A you.
A Virus-free. [2][14]www.avg.com
A On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:17 PM Guy Trigaux
<[3][15]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
A wrote:
A On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:49 PM Patrick HALS
<[4][16]patrickhals at gmail.com>
A wrote:
A Honestly, Steve, if you'd race over here with a Pantera in the EU
A classic series, you would quickly realize that self derision is not
A very common, by far.A
A Especially with some ( not all, luckily ) French and German
A drivers...A
A I know I will suffer after these top secret revelations, but that's
how
A I feelAA !
A Yet, I'll be so glad to race again with those gentlemen, and show
them
A my red lights :>))
A Best !A
A Pat
A Candy 2862
A ADA 9628
A LeA mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A A 20:19, Steve Lisa
A <[5][17]stevelisa at patentit.com> a A(c)critA :
A Gotta love peopleA with a great talent for self-derision -- if you
race
A cars, it's pretty much a requirement.
A Regards,A
A Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
A The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
A Email: [18]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
A Direct: 480-442-0297
A [6][19]www.PatentIt.com
A Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656AA |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
A |A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
A Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357AA |AA F: 312.896.5633AA |AA
A: 55 E.
A Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
A This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
A confidential and privileged information. If you received this email
in
A error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me.
Thank
A you.
A Virus-free. [7][20]www.avg.com
A On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 11:16 AM alessandro1977621
A <[8][21]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
A Yes, that's the one, 2860..
A Finished Le Mans twice, in 72 and 75
A Claude Dubois and Guy Trigaux can rell you stories about their car
for
A hours.
A Just ask, they love it, and both are great story tellers, with a
A fantastic sense of humor, skills and self derision
A Pat
A Candy 2862
A Ada 9628
A EnvoyA(c) depuis mon tA(c)lA(c)phone
A -------- Message original --------
A DeA : Steve Lisa <[9][22]stevelisa at patentit.com>
A DateA : mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 AA 19:58
A AA : Patrick HALS <[10][23]patrickhals at gmail.com>
A CcA : List DeTomaso Forum
<[11][24]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Mike
A Drew <[12][25]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, [13][26]rimovp at gmail.com, Guy &
Denise
A Trigaux <[14][27]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
A ObjetA : Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
A I found this today
A --A
[15][28]https://www.facebook.com/groups/893004427530930/posts/189880632
A 6950730/
A Regards,A
A Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
A The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
A Email: [29]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
A Direct: 480-442-0297
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A On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 10:32 AM Patrick HALS
A <[18][32]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
A A AA A Hi all,A
A A AA A I think it must be VIN 2860, one of 14 factoryA cars, which
A A was, in
A A AA A period, belonging to the Belgian team " Team Willeme".A
A A AA A ThisA car is now the property of Guy Trigaux, and in
immaculate
A A AA A condition.AA >>>AA I bought the car from Team WillemeA
A A December 15 - 1977 . Arrived late in the BeNeLux GR.2 to Gr .5 --
A A 1978 Championship due to complete rebuild of the car . Same
A A Championship in 1979 : 1st in Gr .4 at the end of the season and
2nd
A A in the General Classification ( won by a 935 ) . IAA have
enjoyed
A A the car at VIR , Road Atlanta andAA Roebling RoadAA hopA(R)ng
to
A A "test " the new pavement of CMP one of the next months ...A A
A A AA A Patrick
A A AA A Candy 2862
A A AA A ADA 9628
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