[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
charlesmccall at gmail.com
charlesmccall at gmail.com
Sun May 17 00:42:24 EDT 2020
Just in case it isn't your ignition switch (this diagnosis was made based on
the understanding that the engine runs just fine with the key in the "start"
position but not "run". I did not understand that this is the case, others
did, so perhaps you could clarify?) I have had several MSD electronic
ignition boxes fail weirdly. I have had everything from a completely dead
engine, as you describe, to one that ran rough and wouldn't rev about 3000
rpm. I now carry a spare unit, and if my engine starts to misbehave I swap
out the MSD unit and see if the problem has disappeared. More than once, it
has. You have a different brand, but they could fail the same - can you
borrow one to try?
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf Of Mike
Reilly
Sent: 17. maj 2020 09:57
To: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing
etc. Baffled and need Advice
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Now that I have verified that the
distributor pin is there and in good shape I reinstalled the distributor.
Checked timing and still would not start. Here is a video of me trying to
start it before my first post. I tried no throttle, two pumps on the
throttle and then holding the throttle to the floor.
https://vimeo.com/user54794798/review/419467000/7ef023747b
Next I will check out the ignition switch. I do have a spare if I need it
which I bought probably 20 years ago at the San Diego swap meet when I lived
there.
One thing I had thought I listed in my initial email but seemed to have
forgotten to add was that a month or so ago I was driving down a 40 MPH side
street and the car just died. I had to coast to a safe parking lot. When I
stopped it did restart and drove with no problem. Maybe this points to the
ignition switch as well. Sorry I left that out : ( We also had an internet
outage for the past three days so I was composing mail on a small mobile
device with spotty connections. Internet is back up but now I need to get
the Pantera back in commission. Thanks, Mike R.
From: Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:02 PM
To:
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing
etc. Baffled and need Advice
Sounds more like it could be the column switch.
My initial thought was the timing gear, nylon, old, breaks off, lets the
chain jump a few teeth. Ask me how I know.
Soooo... when that happened to -me-, the engine cranked over very
-smoothly- with no backfires in the carb and none out the exhaust, it just
wouldn't start. It wouldn't even catch. But boy it turned over real
smooth, like a Singer sewing machine.
Since this one sounds like it catches but doesn't stay running, I'd lean
toward the ignition switch.
By the way, I was able to see my cam gear had broken nylon by looking
through the distributor hole. Not easy to do, but that's what showed me the
nylon was gone.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired Spokane County ARES-RACES-ACS
EC/RO
******************************
http://w7tsc.org
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 5/16/2020 19:05, B Hower via DeTomaso wrote:
> How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get any
> backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems he has
> spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air, gas
> squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at cylinder,
> shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
> Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
> ! )
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry
> <davel at trguys.com> wrote:
> Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
> And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing chain
> gone
> past by a few links.
> Dave
> On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
> Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the chain
> slack
> from the fuel pump hole.A Reach in before the eccentric and see if
> itas loose.A Itas going to have some play but it will feel really
> slack if the teeth have started to decay.
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb
[1]<[1][1]spkorb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> A timing light will show how close your timing is.A I worry the pin
> is
> sheared but binding on the shaft.A It should still be checkable by
> sight which sounds like what you have done.A The other thing to
> check,
> since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the cam.A
> These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression check can
> help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw as well
> as
> compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
> Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have stock 50
> year
> old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
> Sean
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly
> [2]<[2][2]reillyms at live.com>
> wrote:
> A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has
> me
> A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
> stranded.
> A A It's been running strong and starting immediately including
> right
> A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive with
a
> planned
> A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out.A So,
> the car
> A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
> perfectly the
> A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car off,
> bought dog
> A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well, the
> car
> would
> A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
> starter
> A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't
> get
> a
> A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was
> getting fuel
> A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it
throttle.A
> I
> A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and
> tried
> A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear most
plug
> wire and
> A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just fine.A I
> let
> it sit
> A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would sound
like
> it wanted
> A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas pedal
> while
> A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very
> high like
> A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I then
> pulled all
> A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me.A
> They
> A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which
> was
> A A probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a
> rich
> A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back
> to my
> A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did the
> following
> A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
> A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
> A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and
> it
> was
> A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped the new
> plugs at
> A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford
> sources for a
> A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
> ignition.A The one
> A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
> A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the
> rotor.A They
> A A A A are both about a year old.
> A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may
> have
> A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it
> was still
> A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it later
> though)
> A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
> recently
> A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600
> was
> leaking
> A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was running
> fine and
> A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been running
> rich based
> A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting
so
> looked
> A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was
> some issue
> A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
> carb....didn't start
> A A A A in the same manner.
> A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
> Cranked the
> A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to
show
> the timing
> A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set
> last year.
> A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the
#1
> sparkplug
> A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that the
> distributor
> A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is
> still
> keeping
> A A A A things lined up
> A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
> symptoms
> A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin
> sheared or
> A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I did
> notice the
> A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
> captured and
> A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to
> the sender
> A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface rust.A
> But since I
> A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine.A
> I
> cleaned it
> A A A A up anyway while I had it out
> A A Stats on my Pantera:
> A A A * Late model 74
> A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
> A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
> A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed
> nearly 30
> A A A A years ago
> A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
> secondary (same
> A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
> A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from
> Hall in
> A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support
> coming from
> A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
> A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this about
> 4
> months
> A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N: 8207
> that is one
> A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends
> for his
> A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past
> and that was
> A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil made
> the engine
> A A A A really run nice!
> A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
> A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong,
charged
> and
> A A A A cranks fine
> A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean
up
> the
> A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of
> general
> A A A A maintenance a few years ago
> A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A
Fuel,
> Air,
> A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air,
> spark,
> and
> A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low
> mile engine
> A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression issue
> would have
> A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one
> minute and
> A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is working
and
> not
> A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it
could
> be and
> A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next.A
> Next
> I'm
> A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure if
> those fail
> A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of
> the
> spark
> A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are
> appreciated.
> A A Thanks, Mike
> A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get
additional
> input.A I
> A A really want to get driving again : )
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> Sean Korb [[5]5][5]spkorb at gmail.com [6][6][6]http://spkorb.org (est
> 1994)
> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
> --
> Sean Korb [[7]7][7]spkorb at gmail.com [8][8][8]http://spkorb.org (est
> 1994)
> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
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> 9. mailto:[28]spkorb at gmail.com
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> 19. mailto:davel at trguys.com
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