[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
Sean Korb
spkorb at gmail.com
Sat May 16 23:15:48 EDT 2020
Funny story, yes it should but might be super infrequent and random. In...
1984 I had super long hair and I convinced my mom to buy a 1967 Mustang
with no motor that I could put our 1970 LTD motor into. It was quite the
hot rod but it conked out shortly after the transplant. I thought it was
flooded, it had spark but it just wouldn't start or even backfire.
I had my little brother start the car while I looked in the carburator...
never do this. I had ginormous glasses which probably saved my eyes but the
flame took out a chunk of my hair. After a comic beat, I poked my head
from behind the hood and my brother laughed for at least 2 weeks.
Anyway I didn't have a Guage so I had him turn it over while I had my
finger over the spark plugs hole. Also don't do this. Practically sucked
my finger in and we *know* it doesn't do that. It made a funny rythmic
noise . That's when I checked the chain slack.
Easier job to do on the Pantera than the Mustang but still painful.
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 10:05 PM B Hower via DeTomaso <
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get any
> backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems he has
> spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air, gas
> squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at cylinder,
> shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
> Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
> ! )
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry
> <davel at trguys.com> wrote:
> Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
> And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing chain
> gone
> past by a few links.
> Dave
> On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
> Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the chain
> slack
> from the fuel pump hole.A Reach in before the eccentric and see if
> itas loose.A Itas going to have some play but it will feel really
> slack if the teeth have started to decay.
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb [1]<[1][1]spkorb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> A timing light will show how close your timing is.A I worry the pin
> is
> sheared but binding on the shaft.A It should still be checkable by
> sight which sounds like what you have done.A The other thing to
> check,
> since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the cam.A
> These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression check can
> help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw as well
> as
> compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
> Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have stock 50
> year
> old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
> Sean
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly
> [2]<[2][2]reillyms at live.com>
> wrote:
> A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has
> me
> A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
> stranded.
> A A It's been running strong and starting immediately including
> right
> A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive with a
> planned
> A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out.A So,
> the car
> A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
> perfectly the
> A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car off,
> bought dog
> A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well, the
> car
> would
> A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
> starter
> A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't
> get
> a
> A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was
> getting fuel
> A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle.A
> I
> A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and
> tried
> A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear most plug
> wire and
> A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just fine.A I
> let
> it sit
> A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would sound like
> it wanted
> A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas pedal
> while
> A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very
> high like
> A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I then
> pulled all
> A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me.A
> They
> A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which
> was
> A A probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a
> rich
> A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back
> to my
> A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did the
> following
> A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
> A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
> A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and
> it
> was
> A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped the new
> plugs at
> A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford
> sources for a
> A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
> ignition.A The one
> A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
> A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the
> rotor.A They
> A A A A are both about a year old.
> A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may
> have
> A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it
> was still
> A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it later
> though)
> A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
> recently
> A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600
> was
> leaking
> A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was running
> fine and
> A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been running
> rich based
> A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so
> looked
> A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was
> some issue
> A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
> carb....didn't start
> A A A A in the same manner.
> A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
> Cranked the
> A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show
> the timing
> A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set
> last year.
> A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1
> sparkplug
> A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that the
> distributor
> A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is
> still
> keeping
> A A A A things lined up
> A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
> symptoms
> A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin
> sheared or
> A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I did
> notice the
> A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
> captured and
> A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to
> the sender
> A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface rust.A
> But since I
> A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine.A
> I
> cleaned it
> A A A A up anyway while I had it out
> A A Stats on my Pantera:
> A A A * Late model 74
> A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
> A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
> A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed
> nearly 30
> A A A A years ago
> A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
> secondary (same
> A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
> A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from
> Hall in
> A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support
> coming from
> A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
> A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this about
> 4
> months
> A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N: 8207
> that is one
> A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends
> for his
> A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past
> and that was
> A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil made
> the engine
> A A A A really run nice!
> A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
> A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged
> and
> A A A A cranks fine
> A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up
> the
> A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of
> general
> A A A A maintenance a few years ago
> A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A Fuel,
> Air,
> A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air,
> spark,
> and
> A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low
> mile engine
> A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression issue
> would have
> A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one
> minute and
> A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is working and
> not
> A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it could
> be and
> A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next.A
> Next
> I'm
> A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure if
> those fail
> A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of
> the
> spark
> A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are
> appreciated.
> A A Thanks, Mike
> A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional
> input.A I
> A A really want to get driving again : )
> _______________________________________________
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> --
> Sean Korb [[5]5][5]spkorb at gmail.com [6][6][6]http://spkorb.org (est
> 1994)
> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
> --
> Sean Korb [[7]7][7]spkorb at gmail.com [8][8][8]http://spkorb.org (est
> 1994)
> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
> References
> 1. [9]mailto:[9]spkorb at gmail.com
> 2. [10]mailto:[10]reillyms at live.com
> 3. [11]mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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> 5. [13]mailto:[13]spkorb at gmail.com
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> 7. [15]mailto:[15]spkorb at gmail.com
> 8. [16][16]http://spkorb.org/
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> TRGuys.com
> [19][19]davel at trguys.com
> Cell 604-721-2278
> Landline 604-589-9183
> Skype embeddedspaces
> References
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> 9. mailto:[28]spkorb at gmail.com
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-------------- next part --------------
Funny story, yes it should but might be super infrequent and random.
In... 1984 I had super long hair and I convinced my mom to buy a 1967
Mustang with no motor that I could put our 1970 LTD motor into.A It
was quite the hot rod but it conked out shortly after the transplant.A
I thought it was flooded, it had spark but it just wouldn't start or
even backfire.
I had my little brother start the car while I looked in the
carburator... never do this. I had ginormous glasses which probably
saved my eyes but the flame took out a chunk of my hair.A After a
comic beat, I poked my head from behind the hood and my brother laughed
for at least 2 weeks.
Anyway I didn't have a Guage so I had him turn it over while I had my
finger over the spark plugs hole.A Also don't do this. Practically
sucked my finger in and we *know* it doesn't do that.A It made a funny
rythmic noise .A That's when I checked the chain slack.
Easier job to do on the Pantera than the Mustang but still painful.
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 10:05 PM B Hower via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
A A How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get
any
A A backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems
he has
A A spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air,A
gas
A A squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at
cylinder,
A A shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
A A Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may
not be
A A ! )
A A On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry
A A <[2]davel at trguys.com> wrote:
A A A Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
A A A And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing
chain
A A gone
A A A past by a few links.
A A A Dave
A A A On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
A A A Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the
chain
A A slack
A A A from the fuel pump hole.AA Reach in before the eccentric
and see if
A A A itas loose.AA Itas going to have some play but it will feel
really
A A A slack if the teeth have started to decay.
A A A On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb
[1]<[1][1][3]spkorb at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A A A timing light will show how close your timing is.AA I
worry the pin
A A is
A A A sheared but binding on the shaft.AA It should still be
checkable by
A A A sight which sounds like what you have done.AA The other
thing to
A A check,
A A A since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the
cam.A
A A A These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression
check can
A A A help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw
as well
A A as
A A A compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
A A A Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have
stock 50
A A year
A A A old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
A A A Sean
A A A On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly
A A [2]<[2][2][4]reillyms at live.com>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera
that has
A A me
A A A A AA A baffled.AA I've had the car since 1992 and it's
never left me
A A A A stranded.
A A A A AA A It's been running strong and starting immediately
including
A A A A right
A A A A AA A before this situation.AA Last weekend I started a
drive with a
A A A A planned
A A A A AA A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way
out.AA So,
A A A A the car
A A A A AA A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then
drove
A A A A perfectly the
A A A A AA A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.AA I turned the
car off,
A A A A bought dog
A A A A AA A food and then got back in to continue my drive.AA
Well, the
A A car
A A A A would
A A A A AA A not start.AA It turned over fine, the battery was
strong, the
A A A A starter
A A A A AA A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it
couldn't
A A get
A A A A a
A A A A AA A spark.AA I pulled the air cleaner and could see
that it was
A A A A getting fuel
A A A A AA A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it
throttle.A
A A A A I
A A A A AA A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20
mins and
A A A A tried
A A A A AA A again.AA Same issue.AA I pulled the driver side
rear most plug
A A A A wire and
A A A A AA A hooked up my spark tester.AA It showed spark just
fine.AA I
A A let
A A A A it sit
A A A A AA A for an hour.AA Same issue.AA It cranked fine,
would sound like
A A A A it wanted
A A A A AA A to fire but would not.AA Even when I floored the
gas pedal
A A A A while
A A A A AA A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would
rev up very
A A A A high like
A A A A AA A it was running but would not catch to keep
running.AA I then
A A A A pulled all
A A A A AA A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had
with me.A
A A A A They
A A A A AA A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon
fouled which
A A A A was
A A A A AA A probably from me trying to start it over and over
creating a
A A A A rich
A A A A AA A condition.AA So I ended up getting it towed the
1/2 mile back
A A A A to my
A A A A AA A house on a flatbed.AA : (AA The next day when
home I did the
A A A A following
A A A A AA A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
A A A A AA AA A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.AA It was
fine
A A A A AA AA A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for
spark and
A A it
A A A A was
A A A A AA AA AA A getting spark at the plug just fine.AA I
gapped the new
A A A A plugs at
A A A A AA AA AA A .054 based on research on this forum and
other Ford
A A A A sources for a
A A A A AA AA AA A 1974 351c in stock condition with an
electronic
A A A A ignition.AA The one
A A A A AA AA AA A I tested showed good strong spark.
A A A A AA AA A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as
did the
A A A A rotor.AA They
A A A A AA AA AA A are both about a year old.
A A A A AA AA A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g.
roll pin may
A A A A have
A A A A AA AA AA A sheared).AA Rotor would not turn by hand
so I assume it
A A A A was still
A A A A AA AA AA A connected through the shear pin (did check
it later
A A A A though)
A A A A AA AA A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing
carb I had
A A A A recently
A A A A AA AA AA A purchased since I did notice my really old
Holley 600
A A was
A A A A leaking
A A A A AA AA AA A fuel at the base plate area.AA However it
was running
A A A A fine and
A A A A AA AA AA A strong before I pulled it but it may have
been running
A A A A rich based
A A A A AA AA AA A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel
squirting so
A A A A looked
A A A A AA AA AA A good.AA Figured since I had spark, that
maybe there was
A A A A some issue
A A A A AA AA AA A with the Holley.AA Same symptoms with the
new
A A A A carb....didn't start
A A A A AA AA AA A in the same manner.
A A A A AA AA A * Pulled front engine cover to check static
timing.A
A A A A Cranked the
A A A A AA AA AA A engine by hand via the crank pulley and
moved it to show
A A A A the timing
A A A A AA AA AA A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker
that I had set
A A A A last year.
A A A A AA AA AA A The distributor rotor moved just fine to
point to the #1
A A A A sparkplug
A A A A AA AA AA A wire location at this timing.AA This tells
me that the
A A A A distributor
A A A A AA AA AA A shear pin was probably fine and the timing
chain is
A A still
A A A A keeping
A A A A AA AA AA A things lined up
A A A A AA AA A * Still had the same issue of not starting with
the same
A A A A symptoms
A A A A AA AA A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the
roll pin
A A A A sheared or
A A A A AA AA AA A partially sheared.AA It looked perfectly
fine.AA I did
A A A A notice the
A A A A AA AA AA A inside of the distributor where the
magnetic signal is
A A A A captured and
A A A A AA AA AA A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor
to align to
A A A A the sender
A A A A AA AA AA A from the ignition box was had some light
surface rust.A
A A A A But since I
A A A A AA AA AA A had spark at the plugs it must still be
working fine.A
A A I
A A A A cleaned it
A A A A AA AA AA A up anyway while I had it out
A A A A AA A Stats on my Pantera:
A A A A AA AA A * Late model 74
A A A A AA AA A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and
never rebuilt
A A A A AA AA A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
A A A A AA AA A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold
installed
A A A A nearly 30
A A A A AA AA AA A years ago
A A A A AA AA A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and
vacuum
A A A A secondary (same
A A A A AA AA AA A as the Holley set up I just took off)
A A A A AA AA A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor
(bought from
A A A A Hall in
A A A A AA AA AA A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored
wire support
A A A A coming from
A A A A AA AA AA A the control box.AA I wonder if this has
failed?
A A A A AA AA A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).AA
Bought this about
A A 4
A A A A months
A A A A AA AA AA A ago and it was working great.AA This is
MSD, P/N: 8207
A A A A that is one
A A A A AA AA AA A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics)
recommends
A A A A for his
A A A A AA AA AA A system.AA I did have a oil filled coil
fail in the past
A A A A and that was
A A A A AA AA AA A easy to diagnose and replace.AA This new
MSD coil made
A A A A the engine
A A A A AA AA AA A really run nice!
A A A A AA AA A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
A A A A AA AA A * New battery (about one year old) which is
strong, charged
A A A A and
A A A A AA AA AA A cranks fine
A A A A AA AA A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I
did clean up
A A A A the
A A A A AA AA AA A braided ground by the end of the transaxle
as part of
A A A A general
A A A A AA AA AA A maintenance a few years ago
A A A A AA A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC
approach.AA Fuel,
A A A A Air,
A A A A AA A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.AA It has
fuel, air,
A A spark,
A A A A and
A A A A AA A timing.AA Compression hasn't been checked yet but
it's a low
A A A A mile engine
A A A A AA A which was running super strong.AA I think a
compression issue
A A A A would have
A A A A AA A shown up with some symptoms rather than running
great one
A A A A minute and
A A A A AA A not starting the next.AA As far as exhaust that is
working and
A A A A not
A A A A AA A clogged up in anyway.AA I'm at a loss here as to
what it could
A A A A be and
A A A A AA A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the
next.A
A A Next
A A A A I'm
A A A A AA A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.AA
Not sure if
A A A A those fail
A A A A AA A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the
timing of
A A the
A A A A spark
A A A A AA A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are
A A appreciated.
A A A A AA A Thanks, Mike
A A A A AA A P.S.AA I will post this on the Forum as well to
get additional
A A A A input.AA I
A A A A AA A really want to get driving again : )
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[6][6][6][8]http://spkorb.org (est
A A 1994)
A A A "Computers are useless.AA They can only give you answers."
-P.
A A Picasso
A A A --
A A A Sean Korb [[7]7][7][9]spkorb at gmail.com
[8][8][8][10]http://spkorb.org (est
A A 1994)
A A A "Computers are useless.AA They can only give you answers."
-P.
A A Picasso
A A References
A A A 1. [9]mailto:[9][11]spkorb at gmail.com
A A A 2. [10]mailto:[10][12]reillyms at live.com
A A A 3. [11]mailto:[11][13]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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[12][12][14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
A A A 5. [13]mailto:[13][15]spkorb at gmail.com
A A A 6. [14][14][16]http://spkorb.org/
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A A A 8. [16][16][18]http://spkorb.org/
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A A Dave Londry
A A TRGuys.com
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A A A 16. [35][40]http://spkorb.org/
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