[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
B Hower
b.hower3400 at yahoo.com
Sat May 16 22:05:27 EDT 2020
How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get any backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems he has spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air, gas squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at cylinder, shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry <davel at trguys.com> wrote:
Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing chain gone
past by a few links.
Dave
On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the chain slack
from the fuel pump hole.A Reach in before the eccentric and see if
itas loose.A Itas going to have some play but it will feel really
slack if the teeth have started to decay.
On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb [1]<[1]spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
A timing light will show how close your timing is.A I worry the pin is
sheared but binding on the shaft.A It should still be checkable by
sight which sounds like what you have done.A The other thing to check,
since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the cam.A
These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression check can
help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw as well as
compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have stock 50 year
old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
Sean
On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly [2]<[2]reillyms at live.com>
wrote:
A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has me
A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
stranded.
A A It's been running strong and starting immediately including
right
A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive with a
planned
A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out.A So,
the car
A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
perfectly the
A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car off,
bought dog
A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well, the car
would
A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
starter
A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't get
a
A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was
getting fuel
A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle.A
I
A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and
tried
A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear most plug
wire and
A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just fine.A I let
it sit
A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would sound like
it wanted
A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas pedal
while
A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very
high like
A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I then
pulled all
A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me.A
They
A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which
was
A A probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a
rich
A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back
to my
A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did the
following
A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and it
was
A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped the new
plugs at
A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford
sources for a
A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
ignition.A The one
A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the
rotor.A They
A A A A are both about a year old.
A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may
have
A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it
was still
A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it later
though)
A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
recently
A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600 was
leaking
A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was running
fine and
A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been running
rich based
A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so
looked
A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was
some issue
A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
carb....didn't start
A A A A in the same manner.
A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
Cranked the
A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show
the timing
A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set
last year.
A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1
sparkplug
A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that the
distributor
A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is still
keeping
A A A A things lined up
A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
symptoms
A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin
sheared or
A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I did
notice the
A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
captured and
A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to
the sender
A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface rust.A
But since I
A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine.A I
cleaned it
A A A A up anyway while I had it out
A A Stats on my Pantera:
A A A * Late model 74
A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed
nearly 30
A A A A years ago
A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
secondary (same
A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from
Hall in
A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support
coming from
A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this about 4
months
A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N: 8207
that is one
A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends
for his
A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past
and that was
A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil made
the engine
A A A A really run nice!
A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged
and
A A A A cranks fine
A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up
the
A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of
general
A A A A maintenance a few years ago
A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A Fuel,
Air,
A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air, spark,
and
A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low
mile engine
A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression issue
would have
A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one
minute and
A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is working and
not
A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it could
be and
A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next.A Next
I'm
A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure if
those fail
A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of the
spark
A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are appreciated.
A A Thanks, Mike
A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional
input.A I
A A really want to get driving again : )
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"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--
Sean Korb [[7]7]spkorb at gmail.com [8][8]http://spkorb.org (est 1994)
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
References
1. [9]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
2. [10]mailto:reillyms at live.com
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4. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
5. [13]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
6. [14]http://spkorb.org/
7. [15]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
8. [16]http://spkorb.org/
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TRGuys.com
[19]davel at trguys.com
Cell 604-721-2278
Landline 604-589-9183
Skype embeddedspaces
References
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6. http://spkorb.org/
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8. http://spkorb.org/
9. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
10. mailto:reillyms at live.com
11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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13. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
14. http://spkorb.org/
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16. http://spkorb.org/
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18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
19. mailto:davel at trguys.com
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-------------- next part --------------
How far off does the timing have to be before you no longer get any
backfire while cranking ? I may be confused again, but it seems he has
spark while cranking, thus cam is turning so should have air, gas
squirts at carburetor. So if gas at cylinder and spark at cylinder,
shouldn't you get some type of back fire?
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
! )
On Saturday, May 16, 2020, 8:51:28 PM CDT, Dave Londry
<davel at trguys.com> wrote:
Yes, if not spark or fuel or air, then timing.
And per Sean, pin in distributor gear, timing gear or timing chain
gone
past by a few links.
Dave
On 2020-05-16 4:43 p.m., Sean Korb wrote:
Oh! Without taking the pump and cover off you can check the chain
slack
from the fuel pump hole.A Reach in before the eccentric and see if
itas loose.A Itas going to have some play but it will feel really
slack if the teeth have started to decay.
On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 7:39 PM Sean Korb [1]<[1][1]spkorb at gmail.com>
wrote:
A timing light will show how close your timing is.A I worry the pin
is
sheared but binding on the shaft.A It should still be checkable by
sight which sounds like what you have done.A The other thing to
check,
since you have a stock timing set, is the nylon gear on the cam.A
These can crack and fall into your oil pan. A compression check can
help verify it but if itas that far off youall hear it draw as well
as
compress without even having to put a gauge on it.
Iam hoping itas just the ballast resistor but if you have stock 50
year
old nylon gears, put replacing them on the list.
Sean
On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:06 PM Mike Reilly
[2]<[2][2]reillyms at live.com>
wrote:
A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has
me
A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
stranded.
A A It's been running strong and starting immediately including
right
A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive with a
planned
A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out.A So,
the car
A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
perfectly the
A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car off,
bought dog
A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well, the
car
would
A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
starter
A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't
get
a
A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was
getting fuel
A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle.A
I
A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and
tried
A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear most plug
wire and
A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just fine.A I
let
it sit
A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would sound like
it wanted
A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas pedal
while
A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very
high like
A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I then
pulled all
A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me.A
They
A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which
was
A A probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a
rich
A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back
to my
A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did the
following
A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and
it
was
A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped the new
plugs at
A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford
sources for a
A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
ignition.A The one
A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the
rotor.A They
A A A A are both about a year old.
A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may
have
A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it
was still
A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it later
though)
A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
recently
A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600
was
leaking
A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was running
fine and
A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been running
rich based
A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so
looked
A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was
some issue
A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
carb....didn't start
A A A A in the same manner.
A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
Cranked the
A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show
the timing
A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set
last year.
A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1
sparkplug
A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that the
distributor
A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is
still
keeping
A A A A things lined up
A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
symptoms
A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin
sheared or
A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I did
notice the
A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
captured and
A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to
the sender
A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface rust.A
But since I
A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine.A
I
cleaned it
A A A A up anyway while I had it out
A A Stats on my Pantera:
A A A * Late model 74
A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed
nearly 30
A A A A years ago
A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
secondary (same
A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from
Hall in
A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support
coming from
A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this about
4
months
A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N: 8207
that is one
A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends
for his
A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past
and that was
A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil made
the engine
A A A A really run nice!
A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged
and
A A A A cranks fine
A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up
the
A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of
general
A A A A maintenance a few years ago
A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A Fuel,
Air,
A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air,
spark,
and
A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low
mile engine
A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression issue
would have
A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one
minute and
A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is working and
not
A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it could
be and
A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next.A
Next
I'm
A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure if
those fail
A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of
the
spark
A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are
appreciated.
A A Thanks, Mike
A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional
input.A I
A A really want to get driving again : )
_______________________________________________
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Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
--
Sean Korb [[5]5][5]spkorb at gmail.com [6][6][6]http://spkorb.org (est
1994)
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
--
Sean Korb [[7]7][7]spkorb at gmail.com [8][8][8]http://spkorb.org (est
1994)
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
References
1. [9]mailto:[9]spkorb at gmail.com
2. [10]mailto:[10]reillyms at live.com
3. [11]mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [12][12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
5. [13]mailto:[13]spkorb at gmail.com
6. [14][14]http://spkorb.org/
7. [15]mailto:[15]spkorb at gmail.com
8. [16][16]http://spkorb.org/
_______________________________________________
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osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They
also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the
archiving of lis
t messages.
--
Dave Londry
TRGuys.com
[19][19]davel at trguys.com
Cell 604-721-2278
Landline 604-589-9183
Skype embeddedspaces
References
1. mailto:[1][20]spkorb at gmail.com
2. mailto:[2][21]reillyms at live.com
3. mailto:3][22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
5. mailto:5][24]spkorb at gmail.com
6. [25]http://spkorb.org/
7. mailto:7][26]spkorb at gmail.com
8. [27]http://spkorb.org/
9. mailto:[28]spkorb at gmail.com
10. mailto:[29]reillyms at live.com
11. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
13. mailto:[32]spkorb at gmail.com
14. [33]http://spkorb.org/
15. mailto:[34]spkorb at gmail.com
16. [35]http://spkorb.org/
17. mailto:[36]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
18. [37]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
19. mailto:[38]davel at trguys.com
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8. http://spkorb.org/
9. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
10. mailto:reillyms at live.com
11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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29. mailto:reillyms at live.com
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