[DeTomaso] Metal particles in Transaxle
Pantdino
pantdino at aol.com
Tue Jun 25 03:16:10 EDT 2019
EP-90 does not equal GL-5.http://www.benquip.bz/view/product/41
I was trying to find out when GL-5 oils were introduced, without success. Maybe GL-5 didn't even exist in 1973.
More info:
https://www.penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Gear-Oil-Industry-Specifications/83/Gear-Oil-Industry-Specifications---API/256#/
The other issue is viscosity. Lower viscosity = less effort shifting. And synthetic oils have a wider viscosity range than dino oils, so they are not TOO thick at low temp and still be thick enough at high. That's their main advantage, really. Is it hard to shift your car in cold temps, or do the gears clink a bit until its warmed up? try the RedLine
Placebo effect aside, I KNOW my car shifts easier and I THINK the synchros work better with the Red Line than with the Valvoline 80-90 dino stuff I used to use. I used to get a little crunch sometimes-- never do now.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: wayneboian <wayneboian at windstream.net>; detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Metal particles in Transaxle
Jim,
Everything you say is generally right, but 100% wrong for our gearboxes unless they have been modified with non-ZF synchros.
When in doubt, RTFM as they say. Read the freaking manual! :)
Both the Pantera owner’s manual and the ZF manual specify the use of 80-90 GL-5 oil. (ZF Manual says EP-90 I believe, along with an obscure mil-spec oil name, that when you research, corresponds to...GL-5).
I use CRC Sta-Lube. Non-synthetic dinosaur oil, exactly what the gearbox engineers specified. GL4 is intended for gearboxes that have ‘yellow metals’ inside. Ours have no yellow metals. I think Porsche and VW transaxles use GL-4. But not ours.
Some aftermarket synchros were made using yellow metal, so if your gearbox has those inside, then I suppose GL-4 would be more appropriate. But if yours is stock, or rebuilt with stock parts, then RTFM. :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 24, 2019, at 17:27, Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Wayne,
>
> Here's my recollection of when I looked into this extensively:
>
> Does the bottle of Castrol say GL-5, for hypoid differentials?
>
> If so, you are damaging your ZF in using it. Hypoid gears require a
> different chemical makeup because of the great deal of sliding the
> gears do over each other. (Look up hypoid gears online.) There are
> no hypoid gears in a ZF transaxle.
>
> The chemicals that make the hypoid gear oil able to sustain that
> sliding friction without breaking down are sulfur-based (hence the
> smell). These sulfur chemicals bind so strongly to the metal that
> softer metals (like brass) that when they come off, they take some
> of the metal with them. Hence the synchro rings are damaged.
>
> The correct thing is to get a GL-4 oil like Red Line MT-85. If you
> find the limited slip clutches are binding too tightly and you get
> noise from the inside tire when you are starting out when turning,
> like at a stoplight, you can add a little bit of limited slip
> additive to make the oil a little more slippery. But if you add
> too much you'll make your synchro rings ineffective, so you have to
> add a little bit at a time until the grabbing problem is solved to
> your liking.
>
> The upshot is that yes, you can use GL-5 oil in a ZF, but you'll be
> damaging your synchro rings and gears. Synchros require some
> friction between the rings to work. If the oil is too slippery, the
> spinning ring does not make the next one spin like it is supposed
> to, so the next gear is not brought up to speed. And ZF work is not
> cheap.
>
> Sorry if something here is not right, but I'm pretty sure the
> conclusion is correct. Ferrari transaxles are basically the same in
> terms of design, and those guys are totally anal about this stuff.
>
> Jim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne Boian <wayneboian at windstream.net>
> To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 8:32 am
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Metal particles in Transaxle
> I change the oil in the Transaxle last night and found metal
> particles
> on the magnetic drain plug. See attached photo.
> The car has maybe 3,500 to 4,000 miles since the fluid was last
> changed. There was no other foreign material in the container used to
> drain the fluid.
> How mush sleep should I be loosing over the amount of metal
> particles
> in the photo.
> FWIW, I am using Castrol Limited Slip 80W-90 in the transaxle.
> Thanks
> Wayne
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>
>
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> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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-------------- next part --------------
EP-90 does not equal GL-5.
[1]http://www.benquip.bz/view/product/41
I was trying to find out when GL-5 oils were introduced, without
success. Maybe GL-5 didn't even exist in 1973.
More info:
[2]https://www.penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Gear-Oil-Industry-Spe
cifications/83/Gear-Oil-Industry-Specifications---API/256#/
The other issue is viscosity. Lower viscosity = less effort shifting.
And synthetic oils have a wider viscosity range than dino oils, so they
are not TOO thick at low temp and still be thick enough at high. That's
their main advantage, really. Is it hard to shift your car in cold
temps, or do the gears clink a bit until its warmed up? try the
RedLine
Placebo effect aside, I KNOW my car shifts easier and I THINK the
synchros work better with the Red Line than with the Valvoline 80-90
dino stuff I used to use. I used to get a little crunch sometimes--
never do now.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: wayneboian <wayneboian at windstream.net>; detomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Metal particles in Transaxle
Jim,
Everything you say is generally right, but 100% wrong for our gearboxes
unless they have been modified with non-ZF synchros.
When in doubt, RTFM as they say. Read the freaking manual! :)
Both the Pantera owneras manual and the ZF manual specify the use of
80-90 GL-5 oil. (ZF Manual says EP-90 I believe, along with an obscure
mil-spec oil name, that when you research, corresponds to...GL-5).
I use CRC Sta-Lube. Non-synthetic dinosaur oil, exactly what the
gearbox engineers specified. GL4 is intended for gearboxes that have
ayellow metalsa inside. Ours have no yellow metals. I think Porsche
and VW transaxles use GL-4. But not ours.
Some aftermarket synchros were made using yellow metal, so if your
gearbox has those inside, then I suppose GL-4 would be more
appropriate. But if yours is stock, or rebuilt with stock parts, then
RTFM. :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 24, 2019, at 17:27, Pantdino via DeTomaso
<[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Wayne,
>
> Here's my recollection of when I looked into this extensively:
>
> Does the bottle of Castrol say GL-5, for hypoid differentials?
>
> If so, you are damaging your ZF in using it. Hypoid gears require
a
> different chemical makeup because of the great deal of sliding the
> gears do over each other. (Look up hypoid gears online.) There are
> no hypoid gears in a ZF transaxle.
>
> The chemicals that make the hypoid gear oil able to sustain that
> sliding friction without breaking down are sulfur-based (hence the
> smell). These sulfur chemicals bind so strongly to the metal that
> softer metals (like brass) that when they come off, they take some
> of the metal with them. Hence the synchro rings are damaged.
>
> The correct thing is to get a GL-4 oil like Red Line MT-85. If
you
> find the limited slip clutches are binding too tightly and you get
> noise from the inside tire when you are starting out when turning,
> like at a stoplight, you can add a little bit of limited slip
> additive to make the oil a little more slippery. But if you add
> too much you'll make your synchro rings ineffective, so you have
to
> add a little bit at a time until the grabbing problem is solved to
> your liking.
>
> The upshot is that yes, you can use GL-5 oil in a ZF, but you'll
be
> damaging your synchro rings and gears. Synchros require some
> friction between the rings to work. If the oil is too slippery,
the
> spinning ring does not make the next one spin like it is supposed
> to, so the next gear is not brought up to speed. And ZF work is
not
> cheap.
>
> Sorry if something here is not right, but I'm pretty sure the
> conclusion is correct. Ferrari transaxles are basically the same
in
> terms of design, and those guys are totally anal about this stuff.
>
> Jim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne Boian <[4]wayneboian at windstream.net>
> To: detomaso <[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 8:32 am
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Metal particles in Transaxle
> I change the oil in the Transaxle last night and found metal
> particles
> on the magnetic drain plug. See attached photo.
> The car has maybe 3,500 to 4,000 miles since the fluid was last
> changed. There was no other foreign material in the container used
to
> drain the fluid.
> How mush sleep should I be loosing over the amount of metal
> particles
> in the photo.
> FWIW, I am using Castrol Limited Slip 80W-90 in the transaxle.
> Thanks
> Wayne
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. http://www.benquip.bz/view/product/41
2. https://www.penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Gear-Oil-Industry-Specifications/83/Gear-Oil-Industry-Specifications---API/256#/
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:wayneboian at windstream.net
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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