[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Richard Greenblum
Richard at richardgreenblum.com
Tue Sep 15 09:40:58 EDT 2015
There¹s another reason to add to the list. This is a very car-saavy group
of people. Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be sold to people who
don¹t look at the instruments, much less understand them, or even care. I¹d
be surprised if they¹re there for any reason beyond norm and style.
Richard
Austin, TX
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Larry - Ohio Time
<Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
To: 'Kirby Schrader' <kirbyschrader at mac.com>, 'Charles McCall'
<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Cc: deTomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and programming code
to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you then eliminate
the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending unit... well that
adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The person who came up
with that one is a VP now.
Follow the money, it's always about the money!
Larry (has none) - Cleveland
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Kirby
Schrader
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
To: Charles McCall
Cc: Pantera list serve
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Not quite as stupid, but..
My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure gauge in the
instrument cluster.
It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at rpm.
It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an idiot light in
the disguise of a gauge.
It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
FWIW,
Kirby
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd chalk it up
> to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable source.
> A
> Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is quite
> unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and illogical. To
> know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car is
> engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan, then your
> temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole idea of
> measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches the
> Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The theoretical
> coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is 192F if
> that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of factors, where
> it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be roughly that.
> A
> If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting stuck, a leak in
> your cooling system, something that the computer model won't take into
> account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical hasn't changed,
> but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a gasket and
> you have no idea.
> A
> This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
> manufacturing... A
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles <[1]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> A A Dear Forum,
> A A A A A A A A A A I was just reading the October
> Grassroots Motorsports
> A A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro that they
> were
> A A modifying and testing on the track.
> A A A A A A A A A ".......While enjoying the track outing,
> we confirmed
> A A the third thing that had begun to concern us at Daytona:
> seemingly very
> A A high engine oil temps.A After just a few laps, the oil temp
> indicated
> A A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to within a
> couple
> A A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.A If nothing else, this
> warranted
> A A some talks with Chevy.
> A A A A A A A A A A A We had a chat and exchanged some
> emails with one of
> A A their powertrain engineers and learned some interesting
> stuff.A First
> A A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't actually
> measuring oil
> A A temp per se.A The gauge actually reflects what a computer
> model
> A A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be based on
> current
> A A information.A It takes data parameters like ambient temp, rpm,
> engine
> A A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and dozens of
> other data
> A A points to build a very accurate simulation.
> A A A A A A A A A A Amazing, yes.A But the oil is
> literally 3 feet from
> A A you.A It's right there.A Wouldn't it be easier to just
> measure the
> A A temp?A Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly accurate and
> quicker to
> A A react than an actual gauge under normal conditions.A And
> there's the
> A A rub.A Under typical loads the model is exceptional, but when
> the
> A A variables start to greatly exceed the normal programming thanks
> to
> A A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it may not be
> capable of
> A A accurately predicting temps."
> A A A A A A A A A A They then discuss the loan of the
> Chevy old school
> A A thermocouple to install and double check the accuracy of
> virtual oil
> A A pan oil temp reality with......an actual measurement of the
> actual
> A A temperature in real time.
> A A A A A A A A A A What is wrong with modern car
> manufacturers?A A A
> A A computer model simulation of the engine oil temperature?A What
> could
> A A ever go wrong with that?A A I am appalled and flabbergasted by
> such
> A A things.A I am a Luddite.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Confused,A
> Chuck Engles
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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-------------- next part --------------
There's another reason to add to the list. This is a very car-saavy
group of people. Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be sold to
people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand them, or
even care. I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason beyond
norm and style.
Richard
Austin, TX
From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Larry - Ohio
Time <[2]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3]kirbyschrader at mac.com>, 'Charles McCall'
<[4]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Cc: deTomaso List <[5]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and programming
code
to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you then
eliminate
the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending unit... well
that
adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The person who
came up
with that one is a VP now.
Follow the money, it's always about the money!
Larry (has none) - Cleveland
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Kirby
Schrader
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
To: Charles McCall
Cc: Pantera list serve
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Not quite as stupid, but..
My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure gauge in
the
instrument cluster.
It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at rpm.
It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an idiot
light in
the disguise of a gauge.
It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
FWIW,
Kirby
On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall <[7]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
wrote:
Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd chalk it
up
to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable source.
A
Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is quite
unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and illogical.
To
know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car is
engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan, then your
temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole idea of
measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches the
Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
theoretical
coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is 192F if
that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of factors,
where
it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be roughly that.
A
If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting stuck, a leak
in
your cooling system, something that the computer model won't take
into
account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical hasn't
changed,
but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a gasket and
you have no idea.
A
This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
manufacturing... A
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
<[1][8]cengles at cox.net>
wrote:
A A Dear Forum,
A A A A A A A A A A I was just reading the October
Grassroots Motorsports
A A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro that they
were
A A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A A A A A A ".......While enjoying the track
outing,
we confirmed
A A the third thing that had begun to concern us at Daytona:
seemingly very
A A high engine oil temps.A After just a few laps, the oil temp
indicated
A A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to within a
couple
A A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.A If nothing else, this
warranted
A A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A A A A A A A A We had a chat and exchanged some
emails with one of
A A their powertrain engineers and learned some interesting
stuff.A First
A A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't actually
measuring oil
A A temp per se.A The gauge actually reflects what a computer
model
A A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be based on
current
A A information.A It takes data parameters like ambient temp,
rpm,
engine
A A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and dozens of
other data
A A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A A A A A A A Amazing, yes.A But the oil is
literally 3 feet from
A A you.A It's right there.A Wouldn't it be easier to just
measure the
A A temp?A Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly accurate and
quicker to
A A react than an actual gauge under normal conditions.A And
there's the
A A rub.A Under typical loads the model is exceptional, but when
the
A A variables start to greatly exceed the normal programming
thanks
to
A A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it may not be
capable of
A A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A A A A A A A They then discuss the loan of the
Chevy old school
A A thermocouple to install and double check the accuracy of
virtual oil
A A pan oil temp reality with......an actual measurement of the
actual
A A temperature in real time.
A A A A A A A A A A What is wrong with modern car
manufacturers?A A A
A A computer model simulation of the engine oil
temperature?A What
could
A A ever go wrong with that?A A I am appalled and flabbergasted
by
such
A A things.A I am a Luddite.
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Confused,A
Chuck Engles
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