[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Sean Korb
spkorb at gmail.com
Tue Sep 15 11:09:52 EDT 2015
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few years
ago. It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite a bit because
the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were worried about
their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in the red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum <
Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
> There's another reason to add to the list. This is a very car-saavy
> group of people. Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be sold to
> people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand them, or
> even care. I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason beyond
> norm and style.
> Richard
> Austin, TX
>
> From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Larry - Ohio
> Time <[2]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
> To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3]kirbyschrader at mac.com>, 'Charles McCall'
> <[4]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Cc: deTomaso List <[5]detomaso at poca.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
> Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
> Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and programming
> code
> to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you then
> eliminate
> the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending unit... well
> that
> adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The person who
> came up
> with that one is a VP now.
> Follow the money, it's always about the money!
> Larry (has none) - Cleveland
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Kirby
> Schrader
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
> To: Charles McCall
> Cc: Pantera list serve
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> Not quite as stupid, but..
> My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure gauge in
> the
> instrument cluster.
> It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at rpm.
> It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an idiot
> light in
> the disguise of a gauge.
> It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall <[7]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd chalk it
> up
>
> to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable source.
>
> A
>
> Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is quite
>
> unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and illogical.
> To
>
> know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car is
>
> engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan, then your
>
> temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole idea of
>
> measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches the
>
> Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
> theoretical
>
> coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is 192F if
>
> that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of factors,
> where
>
> it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be roughly that.
>
> A
>
> If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting stuck, a leak
> in
>
> your cooling system, something that the computer model won't take
> into
>
> account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical hasn't
> changed,
>
> but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a gasket and
>
> you have no idea.
>
> A
>
> This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
>
> manufacturing... A
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
> <[1][8]cengles at cox.net>
>
> wrote:
>
> A A Dear Forum,
>
> A A A A A A A A A A I was just reading the October
>
> Grassroots Motorsports
>
> A A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro that they
>
> were
>
> A A modifying and testing on the track.
>
> A A A A A A A A A ".......While enjoying the track
> outing,
>
> we confirmed
>
> A A the third thing that had begun to concern us at Daytona:
>
> seemingly very
>
> A A high engine oil temps.A After just a few laps, the oil temp
>
> indicated
>
> A A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to within a
>
> couple
>
> A A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.A If nothing else, this
>
> warranted
>
> A A some talks with Chevy.
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A We had a chat and exchanged some
>
> emails with one of
>
> A A their powertrain engineers and learned some interesting
>
> stuff.A First
>
> A A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't actually
>
> measuring oil
>
> A A temp per se.A The gauge actually reflects what a computer
>
> model
>
> A A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be based on
>
> current
>
> A A information.A It takes data parameters like ambient temp,
> rpm,
>
> engine
>
> A A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and dozens of
>
> other data
>
> A A points to build a very accurate simulation.
>
> A A A A A A A A A A Amazing, yes.A But the oil is
>
> literally 3 feet from
>
> A A you.A It's right there.A Wouldn't it be easier to just
>
> measure the
>
> A A temp?A Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly accurate and
>
> quicker to
>
> A A react than an actual gauge under normal conditions.A And
>
> there's the
>
> A A rub.A Under typical loads the model is exceptional, but when
>
> the
>
> A A variables start to greatly exceed the normal programming
> thanks
>
> to
>
> A A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it may not be
>
> capable of
>
> A A accurately predicting temps."
>
> A A A A A A A A A A They then discuss the loan of the
>
> Chevy old school
>
> A A thermocouple to install and double check the accuracy of
>
> virtual oil
>
> A A pan oil temp reality with......an actual measurement of the
>
> actual
>
> A A temperature in real time.
>
> A A A A A A A A A A What is wrong with modern car
>
> manufacturers?A A A
>
> A A computer model simulation of the engine oil
> temperature?A What
>
> could
>
> A A ever go wrong with that?A A I am appalled and flabbergasted
> by
>
> such
>
> A A things.A I am a Luddite.
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Confused,A
>
> Chuck Engles
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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> 4. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
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--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
-------------- next part --------------
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite a
bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in the
red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
<[1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
car-saavy
A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
sold to
A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand
them, or
A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
beyond
A A norm and style.
A A Richard
A A Austin, TX
A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of
Larry - Ohio
A A Time <[2][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>, 'Charles
McCall'
A A <[4][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6]detomaso at poca.com>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
programming
A A code
A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
then
A A eliminate
A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
unit... well
A A that
A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
person who
A A came up
A A with that one is a VP now.
A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby
A A Schrader
A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure
gauge in
A A the
A A instrument cluster.
A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
rpm.
A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
idiot
A A light in
A A the disguise of a gauge.
A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
A A FWIW,
A A Kirby
A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
<[7][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
chalk it
A A up
A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
source.
A A A A
A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
quite
A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
illogical.
A A To
A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car is
A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
then your
A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole idea
of
A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
the
A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
A A theoretical
A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
192F if
A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
factors,
A A where
A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be roughly
that.
A A A A
A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting stuck,
a leak
A A in
A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model won't
take
A A into
A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical hasn't
A A changed,
A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
gasket and
A A A you have no idea.
A A A A
A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
A A A manufacturing... A
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A <[1][8][9]cengles at cox.net>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
the October
A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
that they
A A A A were
A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While enjoying
the track
A A outing,
A A A A we confirmed
A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
Daytona:
A A A A seemingly very
A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps, the
oil temp
A A A A indicated
A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
within a
A A A A couple
A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If nothing
else, this
A A A A warranted
A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a chat
and exchanged some
A A A A emails with one of
A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
interesting
A A A A stuff.AA First
A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
actually
A A A A measuring oil
A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
computer
A A A A model
A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
based on
A A A A current
A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like ambient
temp,
A A rpm,
A A A A engine
A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
dozens of
A A A A other data
A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
But the oil is
A A A A literally 3 feet from
A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier to
just
A A A A measure the
A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
accurate and
A A A A quicker to
A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
conditions.AA And
A A A A there's the
A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is exceptional,
but when
A A A A the
A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
programming
A A thanks
A A A A to
A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it may
not be
A A A A capable of
A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then discuss
the loan of the
A A A A Chevy old school
A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the accuracy
of
A A A A virtual oil
A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual measurement
of the
A A A A actual
A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong with
modern car
A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
A A temperature?AA What
A A A A could
A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
flabbergasted
A A by
A A A A such
A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
AA AA A Confused,A
A A A A Chuck Engles
A A A A _______________________________________________
A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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A A A A etc.) use the links above.
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etc.)
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A A the links above.
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A A the links above.
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'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
References
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2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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