[DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Mon Jun 22 16:53:07 EDT 2015
FWIW, the Hall thick-tube, long-end upper bay-brace is IMHO pretty much ideal as-sold. The extra triangulated lower rear brace has two design problems. First, the plates that mount the lower brace to the inner fender panels are flat, thick-wall steel plates while the thin fender panels have a compound curve. So edge-welding a large gap around is not as secure as it might be. Flattening the inner fender panels to match will likely promote oil-canning. I always suggest taking new plates, laying them face down in the dirt and 'forming' a compound curve in them with a 12-lb sledge-hammer. A hydraulic press would be more precise. Virtually any curve you might be able to beat into them is better than as-delivered-flat.
Second problem is, triangulating to the center of another tube (lower bay-brace system) doesn't structurally work well. Dunno- maybe the way most Panteras are driven today (or not!), theory doesn't matter. And if you cannot find a Hall long-end, square-tube upper bay-brace, any garage mechanic with a tape measure and a gas welder can fabricate one of thick-walled steel- round or square. Larry Stock's PPC-Carson City not only sells the threaded clevis & jam-nut ass'y separately for home craftsmen, he also makes long-end aluminum high-bling brace-bars that seem to work well. The magic of the old Hall square tube bar is the extended ends plus the straight-across force vector; the extended end lengths are likely more important.
The welded-in-place lower subframe braces (front & rear) are a whole other subject and seem to benefit paint integrity more than anything else I've seen. KIrby's experience is interesting- I hadn't heard that before.
My best guess- J Deryke
-----Original Message-----
From: Himes, Terry (397C) (397C) <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: <detomaso at poca.com> <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
So would you suggest I do the front also? Don Byars (as you said)
suggests
it and only sells and installs both.
Not putting my P on the track any more.
But I do want to get the paint
touched up after I solve this problem.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact
us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:B9DF9D05-7D0A-4C3C-82FD-AACCD58D11D9]
JPL
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX
Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818)
653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From:
Mike Drew <[2]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:51 PM
To:
Terry Himes <[3]Terry.Himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: Asa Jay Laughton
<[4]asajay at asajay.com>, "<[5]detomaso at poca.com>"
<[6]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
Terry,
I don't
know if anybody can definitively prove that but anecdotal
evidence suggests
that yes, it will stiffen the rear enough to solve
that chronic problem. I
run my car hard on the track with slicks
(admittedly only a few times) and
have had no cracks there.
My A pillars where they join the too of the
fenders are cracked to hell
though. Larry Stock once actually snapped one
clean off while running
his car hard with slicks, before they invented the
chassis stiffening
kits....I had yet to install the front half of my kit.
Must get on that
someday....
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 21,
2015, at 19:45, "Himes, Terry (397C)"
<[7]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
wrote:
Good Stuff.
Does anyone know if this will prevent the stress
cracks I see on my
Pantera on the body, right at the top of the
rear
deck lid?
Terry
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent
life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
<03F35E2B-1DAE-4631-84D9-B3D240A22161[14].png>
JPL Jet Propulsion
Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team
Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax:
(818) 393-3147
[8]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso
<[9]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Mike Drew
via DeTomaso
<[10]detomaso at poca.com>
Reply-To: Mike Drew <[11]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:42 PM
To: Asa Jay Laughton
<[12]asajay at asajay.com>
Cc: "<[13]detomaso at poca.com>"
<[14]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay
brace
You are correct. Tuesday through Friday from 10-4 or thereabouts.
Oddly, they no longer show the whole kit on the website. They only show
the
upper bar, and it's not the square bar they used to sell. Instead
it's a
round tube, of the type which comprises a portion of the Byars
upper rear
kit.
I maintain that the original hall setup, consisting of a square tube
upper and round lower, with a pair of triangulation tubes between them,
is
the ultimate setup. If the upper and lower parts are not connected
to one
another with these tubes, the effectiveness is drastically
reduced, to the
point where I would suggest that the lower piece is
just a waste of time,
and serves as little more than ballast.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On
Jun 21, 2015, at 19:15, "Asa Jay Laughton" <[15]asajay at asajay.com>
wrote:
Dear Asa and Mike: I shall call Hall Pantera tomorrow.....but I
seem
to
recall that they're closed on Mondays?? Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew
[[16]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 9:12 PM
To: Charles Engles
Cc: <[17]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re:
[DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
Chuck,
I think Hall sells
the individual pieces. I know Byars does not.
Mike
Sent from my
iPhone
On Jun 21, 2015, at 19:05, "Charles Engles" <[18]cengles at cox.net>
wrote:
Dear Forum,
Maybe the
picture will come through.
I am trying to find an accessory rear engine
bay brace like the one
in
the picture. Does anyone know if the
vendors still offer it? When
I
checked recently, it didn't seem to
be available and the only thing
that was available was the complete
front-rear-top-bottom Pantera
chassis stiffening kit. No pieces sold
separately. I would like
to
find one.
Warmest
regards,
Chuck Engles
<DSC_0004 (2).JPG>
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-------------- next part --------------
FWIW, the Hall thick-tube, long-end upper bay-brace is IMHO pretty much
ideal as-sold. The extra triangulated lower rear brace has two design
problems. First, the plates that mount the lower brace to the inner
fender panels are flat, thick-wall steel plates while the thin fender
panels have a compound curve. So edge-welding a large gap around is not
as secure as it might be. Flattening the inner fender panels to match
will likely promote oil-canning. I always suggest taking new plates,
laying them face down in the dirt and 'forming' a compound curve in
them with a 12-lb sledge-hammer. A hydraulic press would be more
precise. Virtually any curve you might be able to beat into them is
better than as-delivered-flat.
Second problem is, triangulating to the center of another tube (lower
bay-brace system) doesn't structurally work well. Dunno- maybe the way
most Panteras are driven today (or not!), theory doesn't matter. And
if you cannot find a Hall long-end, square-tube upper bay-brace, any
garage mechanic with a tape measure and a gas welder can fabricate one
of thick-walled steel- round or square. Larry Stock's PPC-Carson City
not only sells the threaded clevis & jam-nut ass'y separately for home
craftsmen, he also makes long-end aluminum high-bling brace-bars that
seem to work well. The magic of the old Hall square tube bar is the
extended ends plus the straight-across force vector; the extended end
lengths are likely more important.
The welded-in-place lower subframe braces (front & rear) are a whole
other subject and seem to benefit paint integrity more than anything
else I've seen. KIrby's experience is interesting- I hadn't heard that
before.
My best guess- J Deryke
-----Original Message-----
From: Himes, Terry (397C) (397C) <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: <detomaso at poca.com> <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
So would you suggest I do the front also? Don Byars (as you said)
suggests
it and only sells and installs both.
Not putting my P on the track any more.
But I do want to get the paint
touched up after I solve this problem.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact
us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:B9DF9D05-7D0A-4C3C-82FD-AACCD58D11D9]
JPL
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX
Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818)
653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From:
Mike Drew <[2][2]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:51 PM
To:
Terry Himes <[3][3]Terry.Himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
Cc: Asa Jay Laughton
<[4][4]asajay at asajay.com>, "<[5][5]detomaso at poca.com>"
<[6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
Terry,
I don't
know if anybody can definitively prove that but anecdotal
evidence suggests
that yes, it will stiffen the rear enough to solve
that chronic problem. I
run my car hard on the track with slicks
(admittedly only a few times) and
have had no cracks there.
My A pillars where they join the too of the
fenders are cracked to hell
though. Larry Stock once actually snapped one
clean off while running
his car hard with slicks, before they invented the
chassis stiffening
kits....I had yet to install the front half of my kit.
Must get on that
someday....
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 21,
2015, at 19:45, "Himes, Terry (397C)"
<[7][7]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>
wrote:
Good Stuff.
Does anyone know if this will prevent the stress
cracks I see on my
Pantera on the body, right at the top of the
rear
deck lid?
Terry
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent
life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
<03F35E2B-1DAE-4631-84D9-B3D240A22161[14].png>
JPL Jet Propulsion
Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team
Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax:
(818) 393-3147
[8][8]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso
<[9][9]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Mike Drew
via DeTomaso
<[10][10]detomaso at poca.com>
Reply-To: Mike Drew <[11][11]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:42 PM
To: Asa Jay Laughton
<[12][12]asajay at asajay.com>
Cc: "<[13][13]detomaso at poca.com>"
<[14][14]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay
brace
You are correct. Tuesday through Friday from 10-4 or thereabouts.
Oddly, they no longer show the whole kit on the website. They only show
the
upper bar, and it's not the square bar they used to sell. Instead
it's a
round tube, of the type which comprises a portion of the Byars
upper rear
kit.
I maintain that the original hall setup, consisting of a square tube
upper and round lower, with a pair of triangulation tubes between them,
is
the ultimate setup. If the upper and lower parts are not connected
to one
another with these tubes, the effectiveness is drastically
reduced, to the
point where I would suggest that the lower piece is
just a waste of time,
and serves as little more than ballast.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On
Jun 21, 2015, at 19:15, "Asa Jay Laughton" <[15][15]asajay at asajay.com>
wrote:
Dear Asa and Mike: I shall call Hall Pantera tomorrow.....but I
seem
to
recall that they're closed on Mondays?? Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew
[[16][16]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 9:12 PM
To: Charles Engles
Cc: <[17][17]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re:
[DeTomaso] Rear accessory engine bay brace
Chuck,
I think Hall sells
the individual pieces. I know Byars does not.
Mike
Sent from my
iPhone
On Jun 21, 2015, at 19:05, "Charles Engles" <[18][18]cengles at cox.net>
wrote:
Dear Forum,
Maybe the
picture will come through.
I am trying to find an accessory rear engine
bay brace like the one
in
the picture. Does anyone know if the
vendors still offer it? When
I
checked recently, it didn't seem to
be available and the only thing
that was available was the complete
front-rear-top-bottom Pantera
chassis stiffening kit. No pieces sold
separately. I would like
to
find one.
Warmest
regards,
Chuck Engles
<DSC_0004 (2).JPG>
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