[DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
Sean Korb
spkorb at gmail.com
Fri Jan 16 16:04:00 EST 2015
I also think the sound is something I really want to keep. But I also
think the Buick GN motor is the answer to a lot of questions that have not
been asked yet. All cars should come with one as the base platform.
sean
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Curt Hall <cuvee at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> For me...as Cool as the twin turbo V6 or even a turbo 4 may be,...I
> would think the sound from those two Engines in a Pantera would just
> sound wrong! But that's just me. That said...I also believe... What
> Ever Float Your Boat! It's your Car! I would still enjoy seeing it!
> Curt
> On Friday, January 16, 2015 12:08 PM, "michael at michaelshortt.com"
> <michael at michaelshortt.com> wrote:
> The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
> Michael Shortt
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave <[1][1]dave at damardirect.com>
> wrote:
> Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6 cyl. I
> understand that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it was the
> fastest US production car. It was a big car compared to sports
> cars.
> It met its demise because of Corvette management.
> IndyDave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [2][2]cengles at cox.net [mailto:[3][3]cengles at cox.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
> Cc: [4][4]detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
> Dear Forum,
> A A A A A A A A In a coincidence, there is an interesting
> article in the new Road and Track about turbocharging modern
> engines
> in modern sports
> cars.A A FWIW.
> A A A A A A A A Full disclosure:A complete article is Rare
> Forced Air on
> page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
> A A A A A A A A These are my selected highlights from that
> article.
> Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos.A I prefer normally
> aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article supports
> my
> opinion.A While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec V-6, I
> would
> prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new flat crank
> V8.
> A From Jason Cammisa:
> aWe donat like the turbo,a said theA man with an Italian accent,
> abut it
> is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing
> performance.a
> A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the same
> turbo
> spin weave heard from all corners of the globe.
> The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced
> induction,
> for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave.A Since neither he
> nor the
> company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I will:
> Turbos
> arenat the best solution, especially for high-performance cars, and
> they
> donat always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they do.
> Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is otherwise
> wasted,
> increase engine output by forcing extra air into the cylinders,
> prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for combustion.A
> More
> combustion, alas, means more heat.A To keep the engine from
> overheating,
> turbo engines inject excess gas under boost.A It seems counter
> intuitive, but this arich mixturea cools down combustion and
> reduces
> exhaust temperatures.A It is also a double whammy fuel economy
> killer,
> because burning that extra fuel doesnat help the engine make more
> power,
> it actually reduces output.
> a|.out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave of
> boosted
> midrange torque means burning extra fuelaand creating even more
> CO2.A So
> much for reducing emissions.
> Performance, in this sense, refers solely to acceleration.A The
> Ferrari
> California Tas turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles the old
> Californiaas naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8.A Mission
> accomplished.A Except thereas more to an engineas behavior than
> going
> fast in a straight line.A The way the engine generates power aits
> personality, if you will---is just as important as the numbers.A A
> For
> the entire history of the marque, Ferrarias engines have delivered
> urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival of
> sound
> and fury as they raced toward a redline.A Ferrari engines love to
> rev,
> which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
> Once thereas a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory of that
> prancing horse, youare talking about an entirely different animal.
> Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout the
> operating
> range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run out of
> steam, like turbodiesels do.A To combat that, gas-powertrain
> engineers
> artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost at
> lower
> engine speeds.A That electronic trickery helps the engine more
> closely
> emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isnat enough for
> Ferrari.A The California Tas computer also looks at gear position
> and
> limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to revel in
> the
> gears.
> Turbo lag.A Ferrari claims the Californiaas new turbo engine has
> azero
> turbo laga and ainstantaneous response,a then defines response time
> as,
> aless than one second.a Really?A In a car that can hit 60 mph in
> three
> seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
> Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any driveras
> car.
> Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle inputs,
> but
> a turbo engine is vastly more complicated.A It has two torque
> curvesaone
> when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
> A naturally aspirated engineas output is determined by the position
> of
> the pedal and the engine speed, period.A Turbos change that into a
> complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver to keep
> track of.
> Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you ask.A They
> are
> pretty much perfect.A Although their forth coming turbocharged
> replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they will be
> undriveable without assistance from an onboard supercomputer.
> It as sad that the marquee feels compelled by government policy to
> bolt
> turbos on to their lovely engines, when it wonat make a whit of
> difference to air quality.A A And it is doubly sad that we all
> know
> it
> will change the way Ferraris drive.a
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,A Chuck Engles
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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> use the links above.
> --
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> [7]www.michaelshortt.com
> [8][7]michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
> A
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.A If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited.A Please reply to the sender
> that
> you
> have received this message in error, then delete it.A Thank you
> References
> 1. mailto:[8]dave at damardirect.com
> 2. mailto:[9]cengles at cox.net
> 3. mailto:[10]cengles at cox.net
> 4. mailto:[11]detomaso at poca.com
> 5. mailto:[12]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 6. [13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 7.
> [14]http://www.michaelshortt.com/
> 8. mailto:[15]michael at michaelshortt.com
> _______________________________________________
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> References
>
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> 10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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> 17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>
>
--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
-------------- next part --------------
I also think the sound is something I really want to keep.A But I also
think the Buick GN motor is the answer to a lot of questions that have
not been asked yet.A All cars should come with one as the base
platform.
sean
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Curt Hall <[1]cuvee at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
A A For me...as Cool as the twin turbo V6 or even a turbo 4 may
be,...I
A A would think the sound from those two Engines in a Pantera would
just
A A sound wrong! But that's just me. That said...I also believe...
What
A A Ever Float Your Boat! It's your Car! I would still enjoy seeing
it!
A A Curt
A A On Friday, January 16, 2015 12:08 PM,
"[2]michael at michaelshortt.com"
A A <[3]michael at michaelshortt.com> wrote:
A A A The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
A A A Michael Shortt
A A A On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave
<[1][1][4]dave at damardirect.com>
A A wrote:
A A A A Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6
cyl. I
A A A A understand that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it
was the
A A A A fastest US production car. It was a big car compared to
sports
A A cars.
A A A A It met its demise because of Corvette management.
A A A A IndyDave
A A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A A From: [2][2][5]cengles at cox.net
[mailto:[3][3][6]cengles at cox.net]
A A A A Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
A A A A Cc: [4][4][7]detomaso at poca.com
A A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
A A A A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA In a coincidence, there is
an interesting
A A A A article in the new Road and Track about turbocharging modern
A A engines
A A A A in modern sports
A A A A cars.AA A FWIW.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Full disclosure:AA complete
article is Rare
A A A A Forced Air on
A A A A page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A These are my selected
highlights from that
A A A A article.
A A A A Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos.AA I prefer
normally
A A A A aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article
supports
A A A A my
A A A A opinion.AA While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec
V-6, I
A A A A would
A A A A prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new
flat crank
A A A A V8.
A A A A A From Jason Cammisa:
A A A A aWe donat like the turbo,a said theAA man with an Italian
accent,
A A A A abut it
A A A A is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing
A A A A performance.a
A A A A A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the
same
A A A A turbo
A A A A spin weave heard from all corners of the globe.
A A A A The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced
A A A A induction,
A A A A for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave.AA Since
neither he
A A A A nor the
A A A A company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I
will:
A A A A Turbos
A A A A arenat the best solution, especially for high-performance
cars, and
A A A A they
A A A A donat always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they
do.
A A A A Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is
otherwise
A A A A wasted,
A A A A increase engine output by forcing extra air into the
cylinders,
A A A A prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for
combustion.A
A A A A More
A A A A combustion, alas, means more heat.AA To keep the engine
from
A A A A overheating,
A A A A turbo engines inject excess gas under boost.AA It seems
counter
A A A A intuitive, but this arich mixturea cools down combustion and
A A reduces
A A A A exhaust temperatures.AA It is also a double whammy fuel
economy
A A A A killer,
A A A A because burning that extra fuel doesnat help the engine make
more
A A A A power,
A A A A it actually reduces output.
A A A A a|.out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave
of
A A A A boosted
A A A A midrange torque means burning extra fuelaand creating even
more
A A A A CO2.AA So
A A A A much for reducing emissions.
A A A A Performance, in this sense, refers solely to
acceleration.AA The
A A A A Ferrari
A A A A California Tas turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles
the old
A A A A Californiaas naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8.AA
Mission
A A A A accomplished.AA Except thereas more to an engineas behavior
than
A A A A going
A A A A fast in a straight line.AA The way the engine generates
power aits
A A A A personality, if you will---is just as important as the
numbers.AA A
A A A A For
A A A A the entire history of the marque, Ferrarias engines have
delivered
A A A A urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival
of
A A A A sound
A A A A and fury as they raced toward a redline.AA Ferrari engines
love to
A A A A rev,
A A A A which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
A A A A Once thereas a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory
of that
A A A A prancing horse, youare talking about an entirely different
animal.
A A A A Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout
the
A A A A operating
A A A A range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run
out of
A A A A steam, like turbodiesels do.AA To combat that,
gas-powertrain
A A A A engineers
A A A A artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost
at
A A lower
A A A A engine speeds.AA That electronic trickery helps the engine
more
A A A A closely
A A A A emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isnat
enough for
A A A A Ferrari.AA The California Tas computer also looks at gear
position
A A A A and
A A A A limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to
revel in
A A A A the
A A A A gears.
A A A A Turbo lag.AA Ferrari claims the Californiaas new turbo
engine has
A A A A azero
A A A A turbo laga and ainstantaneous response,a then defines
response time
A A A A as,
A A A A aless than one second.a Really?AA In a car that can hit 60
mph in
A A A A three
A A A A seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
A A A A Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any
driveras
A A A A car.
A A A A Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle
inputs,
A A A A but
A A A A a turbo engine is vastly more complicated.AA It has two
torque
A A A A curvesaone
A A A A when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
A A A A A naturally aspirated engineas output is determined by the
position
A A A A of
A A A A the pedal and the engine speed, period.AA Turbos change
that into a
A A A A complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver
to keep
A A A A track of.
A A A A Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you
ask.AA They
A A A A are
A A A A pretty much perfect.AA Although their forth coming
turbocharged
A A A A replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they
will be
A A A A undriveable without assistance from an onboard
supercomputer.
A A A A It as sad that the marquee feels compelled by government
policy to
A A A A bolt
A A A A turbos on to their lovely engines, when it wonat make a whit
of
A A A A difference to air quality.AA A And it is doubly sad that we
all
A A know
A A A A it
A A A will change the way Ferraris drive.a
A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A Warmest
regards,AA Chuck Engles
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [5][5][8]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A [6][6][9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.)
A A A use the links above.
A A A --
A A A Michael L. Shortt
A A A Savannah, Georgia
A A A [7][10]www.michaelshortt.com
A A A [8][7][11]michael at michaelshortt.com
A A A [12]912-232-9390
A A A A
A A A This email is protected by the Electronic Communications
Privacy
A A A Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be
legally
A A A privileged.AA If you are not the intended recipient, you
are hereby
A A A notified
A A A that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying
of this
A A A communication is strictly prohibited.AA Please reply to the
sender
A A that
A A A you
A A A have received this message in error, then delete it.AA
Thank you
A A References
A A A 1. mailto:[8][13]dave at damardirect.com
A A A 2. mailto:[9][14]cengles at cox.net
A A A 3. mailto:[10][15]cengles at cox.net
A A A 4. mailto:[11][16]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 5. mailto:[12][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 6.
[13][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 7.
A A [14][19]http://www.michaelshortt.com/
A A A 8. mailto:[15][20]michael at michaelshortt.com
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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etc.)
A A use the links above.
References
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A 10. mailto:[32]cengles at cox.net
A 11. mailto:[33]detomaso at poca.com
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--
Sean Korb [42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43]http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
References
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4. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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12. tel:912-232-9390
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14. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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