[DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
Curt Hall
cuvee at sbcglobal.net
Fri Jan 16 15:54:36 EST 2015
For me...as Cool as the twin turbo V6 or even a turbo 4 may be,...I would think the sound from those two Engines in a Pantera would just sound wrong! But that's just me. That said...I also believe... What Ever Float Your Boat! It's your Car! I would still enjoy seeing it!
Curt
On Friday, January 16, 2015 12:08 PM, "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com> wrote:
The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
Michael Shortt
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave <[1]dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6 cyl. I
understand that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it was the
fastest US production car. It was a big car compared to sports cars.
It met its demise because of Corvette management.
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: [2]cengles at cox.net [mailto:[3]cengles at cox.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
Cc: [4]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
Dear Forum,
A A A A A A A A In a coincidence, there is an interesting
article in the new Road and Track about turbocharging modern engines
in modern sports
cars.A A FWIW.
A A A A A A A A Full disclosure:A complete article is Rare
Forced Air on
page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
A A A A A A A A These are my selected highlights from that
article.
Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos.A I prefer normally
aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article supports
my
opinion.A While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec V-6, I
would
prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new flat crank
V8.
A From Jason Cammisa:
aWe donat like the turbo,a said theA man with an Italian accent,
abut it
is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing
performance.a
A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the same
turbo
spin weave heard from all corners of the globe.
The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced
induction,
for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave.A Since neither he
nor the
company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I will:
Turbos
arenat the best solution, especially for high-performance cars, and
they
donat always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they do.
Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is otherwise
wasted,
increase engine output by forcing extra air into the cylinders,
prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for combustion.A
More
combustion, alas, means more heat.A To keep the engine from
overheating,
turbo engines inject excess gas under boost.A It seems counter
intuitive, but this arich mixturea cools down combustion and reduces
exhaust temperatures.A It is also a double whammy fuel economy
killer,
because burning that extra fuel doesnat help the engine make more
power,
it actually reduces output.
a|.out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave of
boosted
midrange torque means burning extra fuelaand creating even more
CO2.A So
much for reducing emissions.
Performance, in this sense, refers solely to acceleration.A The
Ferrari
California Tas turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles the old
Californiaas naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8.A Mission
accomplished.A Except thereas more to an engineas behavior than
going
fast in a straight line.A The way the engine generates power aits
personality, if you will---is just as important as the numbers.A A
For
the entire history of the marque, Ferrarias engines have delivered
urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival of
sound
and fury as they raced toward a redline.A Ferrari engines love to
rev,
which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
Once thereas a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory of that
prancing horse, youare talking about an entirely different animal.
Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout the
operating
range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run out of
steam, like turbodiesels do.A To combat that, gas-powertrain
engineers
artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost at lower
engine speeds.A That electronic trickery helps the engine more
closely
emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isnat enough for
Ferrari.A The California Tas computer also looks at gear position
and
limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to revel in
the
gears.
Turbo lag.A Ferrari claims the Californiaas new turbo engine has
azero
turbo laga and ainstantaneous response,a then defines response time
as,
aless than one second.a Really?A In a car that can hit 60 mph in
three
seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any driveras
car.
Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle inputs,
but
a turbo engine is vastly more complicated.A It has two torque
curvesaone
when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
A naturally aspirated engineas output is determined by the position
of
the pedal and the engine speed, period.A Turbos change that into a
complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver to keep
track of.
Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you ask.A They
are
pretty much perfect.A Although their forth coming turbocharged
replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they will be
undriveable without assistance from an onboard supercomputer.
It as sad that the marquee feels compelled by government policy to
bolt
turbos on to their lovely engines, when it wonat make a whit of
difference to air quality.A A And it is doubly sad that we all know
it
will change the way Ferraris drive.a
A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,A Chuck Engles
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
--
Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
[7]www.michaelshortt.com
[8]michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390
A
This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.A If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.A Please reply to the sender that
you
have received this message in error, then delete it.A Thank you
References
1. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
8. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
-------------- next part --------------
For me...as Cool as the twin turbo V6 or even a turbo 4 may be,...I
would think the sound from those two Engines in a Pantera would just
sound wrong! But that's just me. That said...I also believe... What
Ever Float Your Boat! It's your Car! I would still enjoy seeing it!
Curt
On Friday, January 16, 2015 12:08 PM, "michael at michaelshortt.com"
<michael at michaelshortt.com> wrote:
The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
Michael Shortt
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave <[1][1]dave at damardirect.com>
wrote:
Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6 cyl. I
understand that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it was the
fastest US production car. It was a big car compared to sports
cars.
It met its demise because of Corvette management.
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: [2][2]cengles at cox.net [mailto:[3][3]cengles at cox.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
Cc: [4][4]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
Dear Forum,
A A A A A A A A In a coincidence, there is an interesting
article in the new Road and Track about turbocharging modern
engines
in modern sports
cars.A A FWIW.
A A A A A A A A Full disclosure:A complete article is Rare
Forced Air on
page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
A A A A A A A A These are my selected highlights from that
article.
Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos.A I prefer normally
aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article supports
my
opinion.A While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec V-6, I
would
prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new flat crank
V8.
A From Jason Cammisa:
aWe donat like the turbo,a said theA man with an Italian accent,
abut it
is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing
performance.a
A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the same
turbo
spin weave heard from all corners of the globe.
The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced
induction,
for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave.A Since neither he
nor the
company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I will:
Turbos
arenat the best solution, especially for high-performance cars, and
they
donat always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they do.
Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is otherwise
wasted,
increase engine output by forcing extra air into the cylinders,
prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for combustion.A
More
combustion, alas, means more heat.A To keep the engine from
overheating,
turbo engines inject excess gas under boost.A It seems counter
intuitive, but this arich mixturea cools down combustion and
reduces
exhaust temperatures.A It is also a double whammy fuel economy
killer,
because burning that extra fuel doesnat help the engine make more
power,
it actually reduces output.
a|.out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave of
boosted
midrange torque means burning extra fuelaand creating even more
CO2.A So
much for reducing emissions.
Performance, in this sense, refers solely to acceleration.A The
Ferrari
California Tas turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles the old
Californiaas naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8.A Mission
accomplished.A Except thereas more to an engineas behavior than
going
fast in a straight line.A The way the engine generates power aits
personality, if you will---is just as important as the numbers.A A
For
the entire history of the marque, Ferrarias engines have delivered
urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival of
sound
and fury as they raced toward a redline.A Ferrari engines love to
rev,
which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
Once thereas a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory of that
prancing horse, youare talking about an entirely different animal.
Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout the
operating
range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run out of
steam, like turbodiesels do.A To combat that, gas-powertrain
engineers
artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost at
lower
engine speeds.A That electronic trickery helps the engine more
closely
emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isnat enough for
Ferrari.A The California Tas computer also looks at gear position
and
limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to revel in
the
gears.
Turbo lag.A Ferrari claims the Californiaas new turbo engine has
azero
turbo laga and ainstantaneous response,a then defines response time
as,
aless than one second.a Really?A In a car that can hit 60 mph in
three
seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any driveras
car.
Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle inputs,
but
a turbo engine is vastly more complicated.A It has two torque
curvesaone
when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
A naturally aspirated engineas output is determined by the position
of
the pedal and the engine speed, period.A Turbos change that into a
complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver to keep
track of.
Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you ask.A They
are
pretty much perfect.A Although their forth coming turbocharged
replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they will be
undriveable without assistance from an onboard supercomputer.
It as sad that the marquee feels compelled by government policy to
bolt
turbos on to their lovely engines, when it wonat make a whit of
difference to air quality.A A And it is doubly sad that we all
know
it
will change the way Ferraris drive.a
A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,A Chuck Engles
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[5][5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[6][6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
--
Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
[7]www.michaelshortt.com
[8][7]michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390
A
This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.A If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.A Please reply to the sender
that
you
have received this message in error, then delete it.A Thank you
References
1. mailto:[8]dave at damardirect.com
2. mailto:[9]cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:[10]cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:[11]detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:[12]DeTomaso at poca.com
6. [13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7.
[14]http://www.michaelshortt.com/
8. mailto:[15]michael at michaelshortt.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[16]DeTomaso at poca.com
[17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
References
1. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
8. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
14. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
15. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list