[DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
michael at michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
Fri Jan 16 15:07:33 EST 2015
The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
Michael Shortt
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave <dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
> Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6 cyl. I understand
> that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it was the fastest US production
> car. It was a big car compared to sports cars.
> It met its demise because of Corvette management.
>
> IndyDave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cengles at cox.net [mailto:cengles at cox.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
>
>
> Dear Forum,
>
> In a coincidence, there is an interesting article in the
> new Road and Track about turbocharging modern engines in modern sports
> cars. FWIW.
>
>
> Full disclosure: complete article is Rare Forced Air on
> page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
>
> These are my selected highlights from that article.
> Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos. I prefer normally
> aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article supports my
> opinion. While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec V-6, I would
> prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new flat crank V8.
>
> From Jason Cammisa:
>
> “We don’t like the turbo,” said the man with an Italian accent, “but it
> is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing performance.”
> A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the same turbo
> spin we’ve heard from all corners of the globe.
> The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced induction,
> for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave. Since neither he nor the
> company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I will: Turbos
> aren’t the best solution, especially for high-performance cars, and they
> don’t always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they do.
>
> Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is otherwise wasted,
> increase engine output by forcing extra air into the cylinders,
> prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for combustion. More
> combustion, alas, means more heat. To keep the engine from overheating,
> turbo engines inject excess gas under boost. It seems counter
> intuitive, but this “rich mixture” cools down combustion and reduces
> exhaust temperatures. It is also a double whammy fuel economy killer,
> because burning that extra fuel doesn’t help the engine make more power,
> it actually reduces output.
>
> ….out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave of boosted
> midrange torque means burning extra fuel—and creating even more CO2. So
> much for reducing emissions.
>
> Performance, in this sense, refers solely to acceleration. The Ferrari
> California T’s turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles the old
> California’s naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8. Mission
> accomplished. Except there’s more to an engine’s behavior than going
> fast in a straight line. The way the engine generates power –its
> personality, if you will---is just as important as the numbers. For
> the entire history of the marque, Ferrari’s engines have delivered
> urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival of sound
> and fury as they raced toward a redline. Ferrari engines love to rev,
> which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
>
> Once there’s a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory of that
> prancing horse, you’re talking about an entirely different animal.
> Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout the operating
> range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run out of
> steam, like turbodiesels do. To combat that, gas-powertrain engineers
> artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost at lower
> engine speeds. That electronic trickery helps the engine more closely
> emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isn’t enough for
> Ferrari. The California T’s computer also looks at gear position and
> limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to revel in the
> gears.
>
> Turbo lag. Ferrari claims the California’s new turbo engine has “zero
> turbo lag” and “instantaneous response,” then defines response time as,
> “less than one second.” Really? In a car that can hit 60 mph in three
> seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
>
> Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any driver’s car.
> Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle inputs, but
> a turbo engine is vastly more complicated. It has two torque curves—one
> when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
>
> A naturally aspirated engine’s output is determined by the position of
> the pedal and the engine speed, period. Turbos change that into a
> complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver to keep
> track of.
>
> Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you ask. They are
> pretty much perfect. Although their forth coming turbocharged
> replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they will be
> undriveable without assistance from an onboard supercomputer.
>
> It ‘s sad that the marquee feels compelled by government policy to bolt
> turbos on to their lovely engines, when it won’t make a whit of
> difference to air quality. And it is doubly sad that we all know it
> will change the way Ferraris drive.”
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
--
Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390
This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
-------------- next part --------------
The crate version is 365 hp, 417 lbs at around $8,500
Michael Shortt
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Dave <[1]dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
Take a look at the engine specs on the 85-87 Buick GN, 6 cyl. I
understand that was years ago but at the time, 85-87, it was the
fastest US production car. It was a big car compared to sports cars.
It met its demise because of Corvette management.
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: [2]cengles at cox.net [mailto:[3]cengles at cox.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:53 AM
Cc: [4]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Ford GT Twin Turbo V6
Dear Forum,
A A A A A A A A In a coincidence, there is an interesting
article in the new Road and Track about turbocharging modern engines
in modern sports
cars.A A FWIW.
A A A A A A A A Full disclosure:A complete article is Rare
Forced Air on
page 27-28 in the Feb 2015 Road&Track by Jason Cammisa.
A A A A A A A A These are my selected highlights from that
article.
Complete disclosure: I am not a fan of turbos.A I prefer normally
aspirated engines for a number of reasons and this article supports
my
opinion.A While the new Ford GT has a twin turbo Ecotec V-6, I
would
prefer it to have a normally aspirated Coyote or the new flat crank
V8.
A From Jason Cammisa:
aWe donat like the turbo,a said theA man with an Italian accent,
abut it
is the right way to reduce emissions without sacrificing
performance.a
A rare moment of honesty, then a graceful slingshot into the same
turbo
spin weave heard from all corners of the globe.
The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced
induction,
for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave.A Since neither he
nor the
company he works for, Ferrari, can come out and say it, I will:
Turbos
arenat the best solution, especially for high-performance cars, and
they
donat always provide the benefits that carmakers claim they do.
Turbos, which are powered by exhaust energy that is otherwise
wasted,
increase engine output by forcing extra air into the cylinders,
prompting the fuel injectors to provide more fuel for combustion.A
More
combustion, alas, means more heat.A To keep the engine from
overheating,
turbo engines inject excess gas under boost.A It seems counter
intuitive, but this arich mixturea cools down combustion and reduces
exhaust temperatures.A It is also a double whammy fuel economy
killer,
because burning that extra fuel doesnat help the engine make more
power,
it actually reduces output.
a|.out in the real world, riding that big, effortless wave of
boosted
midrange torque means burning extra fuelaand creating even more
CO2.A So
much for reducing emissions.
Performance, in this sense, refers solely to acceleration.A The
Ferrari
California Tas turbo 3.9 liter 553 hp V8 easily outmuscles the old
Californiaas naturally aspirated 4.3 liter 483 hp v8.A Mission
accomplished.A Except thereas more to an engineas behavior than
going
fast in a straight line.A The way the engine generates power aits
personality, if you will---is just as important as the numbers.A A
For
the entire history of the marque, Ferrarias engines have delivered
urgency and drama in lockstep with revs, creating a festival of
sound
and fury as they raced toward a redline.A Ferrari engines love to
rev,
which is one of the main reasons we love Ferraris.
Once thereas a turbo impeller muffling the screaming glory of that
prancing horse, youare talking about an entirely different animal.
Engines with turbos big enough to provide boost throughout the
operating
range produce peak torque at low revs and then gradually run out of
steam, like turbodiesels do.A To combat that, gas-powertrain
engineers
artificially create broad torque plateaus by limiting boost at lower
engine speeds.A That electronic trickery helps the engine more
closely
emulate a naturally aspirated one, but even that isnat enough for
Ferrari.A The California Tas computer also looks at gear position
and
limits max boost in lower gears to encourage its driver to revel in
the
gears.
Turbo lag.A Ferrari claims the Californiaas new turbo engine has
azero
turbo laga and ainstantaneous response,a then defines response time
as,
aless than one second.a Really?A In a car that can hit 60 mph in
three
seconds, one second, is anything but instantaneous.
Immediate, predictable response is a requirement in any driveras
car.
Naturally aspirated engines react without delay to throttle inputs,
but
a turbo engine is vastly more complicated.A It has two torque
curvesaone
when it is off boost and one when it is at full puff.
A naturally aspirated engineas output is determined by the position
of
the pedal and the engine speed, period.A Turbos change that into a
complicated matrix with far too many variables for a driver to keep
track of.
Modern Ferraris do what you ask, when you ask, how you ask.A They
are
pretty much perfect.A Although their forth coming turbocharged
replacements will almost certainly be faster, I fear they will be
undriveable without assistance from an onboard supercomputer.
It as sad that the marquee feels compelled by government policy to
bolt
turbos on to their lovely engines, when it wonat make a whit of
difference to air quality.A A And it is doubly sad that we all know
it
will change the way Ferraris drive.a
A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,A Chuck Engles
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
--
Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
[7]www.michaelshortt.com
[8]michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390
A
This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.A If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.A Please reply to the sender that
you
have received this message in error, then delete it.A Thank you
References
1. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
8. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list