[DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits

[Kirby Schrader]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>    Before you spend any money on a build take the block and get the
>    cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because it's a stock block
>    doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.


Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think much of it.
Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other side....

Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.
You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay together better.
I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and some good old
4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on it.
:-)

FWIW,
Kirby


> Better still if you are
>    spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an aftermarket iron
>    block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are casting, then you can
>    increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the fastest guy on the
>    bench.
>
>    Julian
>
>    Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
>    From: boyd411 at gmail.com
>    To: cengles at cox.net
>    CC: detomaso at poca.com
>    Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
> Chuck,
> I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged crank, shot
> peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high quality roller
> rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners melling oil pump,
> 180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters. And an IR efi
> system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation predicts HP in
> the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they thought 500 hp
> was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have heard of
> stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious to know if
> there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to exceed. (
> Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but how much can
> the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so that the
> block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve something like one
> of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this makes my
> question more clear.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Dear Boyd,
> >
> >
> >           Oh, boy.   An opinion question.................
> >
> >
> >           See below.
> >
> > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit for a
> > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal displacement? No  over
> > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers, cam,
> > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing, strongest
> possible
> > rotating assembly.
> > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp, 600 hp
> higher?
> > If it is possible to reach  these HP numbers while not exceeding 7000 rpm
> > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
> >
> >
> > 1)  Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of details.   Block
> > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or drag
> racing,
> > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
> >
> >
> > 2)  New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block, reasonable 4V
> quench
> > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake manifold and a
> > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do?   Well, it
> > depends.   It depends on the application.  It depends on the machinist
> and
> > the engine builder.  I am not an engine expert, but I have built four
> > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making plans for
> the
> > next one.   Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine with stock block,
> > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits.  Rpm max about 6000 before
> > valve float.   More attention to detail can result in a 485 hp engine
> and a
> > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float.  The current engine with the same
> > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more expensive
> valve
> > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm limit.   The cost
> > goes up with HP and rpm limit.   The higher goal you set will require
> > higher dollars.
> >
> > 3)  I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam, high
> compression
> > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life span numbers
> > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
> >
> >
> >                      Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> >
>
>    _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum Managed
>    by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
>    http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
-------------- next part --------------
   On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

     A A A Before you spend any money on a build take the block and get
     the
     A  A cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because it's a
     stock block
     A  A doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.

   Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think much of
   it.
   Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
   Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other side....
   Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.A
   You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay together
   better.
   I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and some good
   old 4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
   Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on it.
   :-)
   FWIW,
   Kirby
   A

     Better still if you are
     A  A spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an aftermarket
     iron
     A  A block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are casting, then
     you can
     A  A increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the fastest guy
     on the
     A  A bench.
     A  A Julian
     A  A Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
     A  A From: [2]boyd411 at gmail.com
     A  A To: [3]cengles at cox.net
     A  A CC: [4]detomaso at poca.com
     A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits

   Chuck,
   I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged crank, shot
   peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high quality
   roller
   rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners melling oil
   pump,
   180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters. And an IR
   efi
   system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation predicts
   HP in
   the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they thought 500
   hp
   was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have heard of
   stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious to know
   if
   there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to exceed.
   (
   Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but how much
   can
   the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so that the
   block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve something like
   one
   of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this makes my
   question more clear.

   On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles <[5]cengles at cox.net>
   wrote:
   > Dear Boyd,
   >
   >
   > A  A  A  A  A  Oh, boy. A  An opinion question.................
   >
   >

   > A  A  A  A  A  See below.
   >
   > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit for a

     > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal displacement?
     No A over

   > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers, cam,
   > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing, strongest
   possible
   > rotating assembly.
   > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp, 600 hp
   higher?

     > If it is possible to reach A these HP numbers while not exceeding
     7000 rpm

   > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
   >
   >

     > 1) A Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of details. A
     Block

   > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or drag
   racing,
   > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
   >
   >

     > 2) A New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block, reasonable
     4V quench

   > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake manifold and
   a

     > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do? A  Well,
     it
     > depends. A  It depends on the application. A It depends on the
     machinist and
     > the engine builder. A I am not an engine expert, but I have built
     four

   > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making plans
   for the

     > next one. A  Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine with stock
     block,
     > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits. A Rpm max about 6000
     before
     > valve float. A  More attention to detail can result in a 485 hp
     engine and a
     > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float. A The current engine with the
     same

   > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more expensive
   valve

     > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm limit. A
     The cost
     > goes up with HP and rpm limit. A  The higher goal you set will
     require
     > higher dollars.
     >
     > 3) A I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam, high
     compression

   > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life span
   numbers
   > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
   >
   >

   > A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A Warmest regards, A Chuck Engles
   >
   >
   >
   A  A _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
   Managed
   A  A by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [6]DeTomaso at poca.com
   A  A [7]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     DeTomaso mailing list
     [8]DeTomaso at poca.com
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References

   1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
   3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
   4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
   6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com