[DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno

Thu Feb 6 16:00:59 EST 2014

I think I sent you the details some time ago?
If you don't have it, I'll send it again tonight when I get home.

Yes, IR EFI

Sent from my iPhone5
🇺🇸

On Feb 6, 2014, at 14:43, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:

>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
> 
> Is that your independent runner EFI?  What cam did you go with?
> 
>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
> 
> You're welcome,
> Dan Jones
> 
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirby Schrader
> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's good stuff, Dan.
>> I don't feel too bad... :-)
>> 
>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>> 
>> 17 more cubic inches and 16 more HP for Brian.
>> 
>> Really good stuff!
>> 
>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Kirby
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The odometer on Brian Hill's 1971 Pantera showed 60K miles but its 351
>>> Cleveland was burning some oil.  The history of the engine was unknown
>>> and Brian wanted more power anyway so it was decided to build a
>>> stroker Cleveland.  Dis-assembly revealed the block had already been
>>> bored 0.030" but had a few thousandths of wear so was honed to a
>>> 4.040" bore.  A Scat stroker kit with Probe forged dished pistons, 6"
>>> rods and a forged steel 4" stroke crank was used to provide 10:1
>>> compression and a displacement of 410 cubic inches.  The distributor,
>>> carb, water pump, alternator were new and the McLeod flywheel had been
>>> recently resurfaced so those parts were re-used, along with the
>>> Pantera 10 quart oil pan.
>>> 
>>> Most of the stroker Clevelands we've done have been with aluminum
>>> heads (Ford Motorsport A3 high ports, Ford Motorsport C302B high
>>> ports, Brodix BF300 high ports, CHI 3V and 4V, TFS 2V,  etc.) but this
>>> one was the first in a long time that retained the 1970's era OEM cast
>>> iron 4V heads.  The heads were rebuilt years ago with replaceable
>>> bronze guides and had been milled and drilled for screw-in studs and
>>> guide plates.  Dave McLain machined the spring pockets for double
>>> springs, installed single groove valves, did a valve job and
>>> resurfaced the heads.  They looked pretty good so no additional
>>> porting work was done.  On the SuperFlow bench, they flowed:
>>> 
>>> Lift    Intake  Exhaust
>>> Inch    CFM     CFM
>>> 0.025   13.90   10.90
>>> 0.050   33.10   26.50
>>> 0.100   66.40   52.20
>>> 0.200  140.20   97.90
>>> 0.300  201.20  129.90
>>> 0.400  251.40  152.30
>>> 0.500  290.90  165.50
>>> 0.600  313.90  172.70
>>> 0.700  301.70  173.30
>>> 0.800  303.20  174.70
>>> 
>>> I used Dynomation to design the cam, starting with the simulation and
>>> dyno results of the 408C we did for Glen Hartog's Pantera.  That
>>> engine also used cast iron closed chamber 4V heads but those had some
>>> short-side radius work and flowed a bit better (322 CFM @ 0.6").
>>> Compared to the dyno data from Glen's engine, the latest version of
>>> Dynomation was under-predicting the RPM of the HP peak so I biased my
>>> goal to make sure the cam would peak at 6000 RPM, providing the best
>>> average HP between 4000 and a 6500 RPM shift point.  That works well
>>> for a street driven Pantera with stock gearing and still pulls strong
>>> at lower RPM.  Rather than use the Bullet lobes we'd used in the past,
>>> Dave worked with Steve Demos and Mike Ingram to design a couple new
>>> hydraulic roller lobes.  The lobes are based upon the Ford base
>>> circle, not the smaller Chevy base circle of the previous Bullet lobes
>>> we've used. The resulting Demos hydraulic roller cam was checked using
>>> Cam Analyzer v4.0 and proved to be very close to the requested specs:
>>> 
>>> Cam # DM238HR/DM242HR, Grind 0001
>>> 279.3/282.8 advertised duration
>>> 239.6/242.6 degrees duration @ 0.050"
>>> 159.8/162.4 degrees duration @ 0.200"
>>> 0.620"/0.621" intake/exhaust lift (with 1.73:1 rocker arms)
>>> 109 degrees LSA
>>> 108 degres ICL
>>> 
>>> Seat Timing
>>> Intake Open 28.8 BTDC
>>> Intake Close 70.5 ABDC
>>> Exhaust Close 33.8 ATDC
>>> Exhaust Open 69.7 BBDC
>>> 
>>> 0.050" timing
>>> Intake Open 10.8 BTDC
>>> Intake Close 48.8 ABDC
>>> Exhaust Close 11.9 ATDC
>>> Exhaust Open 50.7 BBDC
>>> 
>>> PBM/Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters were used and the roller
>>> rockers from the original engine were retained.  Previously, we had
>>> tested a bunch of intake manifolds on Mike Drew's 408C with CHI 4V
>>> aluminum heads.  The best of the lot were the Edelbrock Scorpion,
>>> Holley Strip Dominator and a ported Blue Thunder dual plane.  The
>>> Edelbrock Scorpion is no longer in production but I found a good used
>>> one so we went with it.  Looking much like an Edebrock Torker, the
>>> Scorpion is taller with a level carb pad (nice to have in the Pantera
>>> which has a level mounted engine and transaxle).  Dave did a lot of
>>> work on the entry radius of the ports in Scorpion's plenum.  On the
>>> dyno, best power was made with a 1" open spacer and best torque was
>>> with a 1" HVH spacer it only dropped a few horsepower and a few lbs-ft
>>> of torque without a spacer.   Brian supplied a Holley 750 carburetor
>>> (p/n 80528) which I thought might be on the small side for the stroker
>>> engine but watching the manifold vacuum during the pulls showed no
>>> significant depression so it looks like it's adequate for the 6000 RPM
>>> 410C.  It seems snappy and idles clean.  The engine liked 30 degrees
>>> for total timing.  Brian will be using a stainless Wilkinson Pantera
>>> exhaust system which performed well in previous testing but the engine
>>> was tested with the following exhaust on the dyno:
>>> 
>>> Hooker 351C Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR)
>>> 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries
>>> 3" diameter by 8" long collector
>>> 12 inch long collector extensions
>>> 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers
>>> 
>>> Based upon the simulation results, I thought we'd hit 500 HP at 6000
>>> RPM but the engine really surprised us by making 560 horsepower at
>>> 6050 RPM and 526 lbs-ft at 4600 RPM through the dyno exhaust.  Not too
>>> shabby for a street cam and factory iron Cleveland heads.  Seems the
>>> big port heads really like the extra cubes.  Previous testing has
>>> shown the 4V heads also respond to a shorter exhaust rocker ratio and
>>> to exhaust port stuffers (MPG Stingers).  It would have been
>>> interesting to see if we could squeeze out a few more ponies but I
>>> think Brian will be pleased with the results.  He kindly offered to
>>> let me use his engine to do back-to-back testing between his iron
>>> closed chamber 4V heads and a set of my Ford Motorsport aluminum high
>>> ports (ported C302Bs) but with the very cold weather this winter
>>> Dave's running a bit behind on the dyno so that testing will have to
>>> wait.  The dyno rolls outside the shop and hooks up to an external
>>> water source so it needs to be above freezing weather which the latest
>>> forecast says won't happen in the next week.  We'll pick back up with
>>> testing the C302B heads on my 407 Fontana engine in the spring.  FWIW,
>>> the Dynomation simulation predicts another 70 HP for my ported C302B
>>> heads and intake.
>>> 
>>> Dan Jones
>>> 
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