[DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno

[Daniel C Jones]

> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.

Is that your independent runner EFI?  What cam did you go with?

> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.

You're welcome,
Dan Jones

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirby Schrader
<kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's good stuff, Dan.
> I don't feel too bad... :-)
>
> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>
> 17 more cubic inches and 16 more HP for Brian.
>
> Really good stuff!
>
> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>
> Regards,
> Kirby
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> The odometer on Brian Hill's 1971 Pantera showed 60K miles but its 351
>> Cleveland was burning some oil.  The history of the engine was unknown
>> and Brian wanted more power anyway so it was decided to build a
>> stroker Cleveland.  Dis-assembly revealed the block had already been
>> bored 0.030" but had a few thousandths of wear so was honed to a
>> 4.040" bore.  A Scat stroker kit with Probe forged dished pistons, 6"
>> rods and a forged steel 4" stroke crank was used to provide 10:1
>> compression and a displacement of 410 cubic inches.  The distributor,
>> carb, water pump, alternator were new and the McLeod flywheel had been
>> recently resurfaced so those parts were re-used, along with the
>> Pantera 10 quart oil pan.
>>
>> Most of the stroker Clevelands we've done have been with aluminum
>> heads (Ford Motorsport A3 high ports, Ford Motorsport C302B high
>> ports, Brodix BF300 high ports, CHI 3V and 4V, TFS 2V,  etc.) but this
>> one was the first in a long time that retained the 1970's era OEM cast
>> iron 4V heads.  The heads were rebuilt years ago with replaceable
>> bronze guides and had been milled and drilled for screw-in studs and
>> guide plates.  Dave McLain machined the spring pockets for double
>> springs, installed single groove valves, did a valve job and
>> resurfaced the heads.  They looked pretty good so no additional
>> porting work was done.  On the SuperFlow bench, they flowed:
>>
>>  Lift    Intake  Exhaust
>>  Inch    CFM     CFM
>>  0.025   13.90   10.90
>>  0.050   33.10   26.50
>>  0.100   66.40   52.20
>>  0.200  140.20   97.90
>>  0.300  201.20  129.90
>>  0.400  251.40  152.30
>>  0.500  290.90  165.50
>>  0.600  313.90  172.70
>>  0.700  301.70  173.30
>>  0.800  303.20  174.70
>>
>> I used Dynomation to design the cam, starting with the simulation and
>> dyno results of the 408C we did for Glen Hartog's Pantera.  That
>> engine also used cast iron closed chamber 4V heads but those had some
>> short-side radius work and flowed a bit better (322 CFM @ 0.6").
>> Compared to the dyno data from Glen's engine, the latest version of
>> Dynomation was under-predicting the RPM of the HP peak so I biased my
>> goal to make sure the cam would peak at 6000 RPM, providing the best
>> average HP between 4000 and a 6500 RPM shift point.  That works well
>> for a street driven Pantera with stock gearing and still pulls strong
>> at lower RPM.  Rather than use the Bullet lobes we'd used in the past,
>> Dave worked with Steve Demos and Mike Ingram to design a couple new
>> hydraulic roller lobes.  The lobes are based upon the Ford base
>> circle, not the smaller Chevy base circle of the previous Bullet lobes
>> we've used. The resulting Demos hydraulic roller cam was checked using
>> Cam Analyzer v4.0 and proved to be very close to the requested specs:
>>
>> Cam # DM238HR/DM242HR, Grind 0001
>>  279.3/282.8 advertised duration
>>  239.6/242.6 degrees duration @ 0.050"
>>  159.8/162.4 degrees duration @ 0.200"
>>  0.620"/0.621" intake/exhaust lift (with 1.73:1 rocker arms)
>>  109 degrees LSA
>>  108 degres ICL
>>
>> Seat Timing
>>  Intake Open 28.8 BTDC
>>  Intake Close 70.5 ABDC
>>  Exhaust Close 33.8 ATDC
>>  Exhaust Open 69.7 BBDC
>>
>> 0.050" timing
>>  Intake Open 10.8 BTDC
>>  Intake Close 48.8 ABDC
>>  Exhaust Close 11.9 ATDC
>>  Exhaust Open 50.7 BBDC
>>
>> PBM/Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters were used and the roller
>> rockers from the original engine were retained.  Previously, we had
>> tested a bunch of intake manifolds on Mike Drew's 408C with CHI 4V
>> aluminum heads.  The best of the lot were the Edelbrock Scorpion,
>> Holley Strip Dominator and a ported Blue Thunder dual plane.  The
>> Edelbrock Scorpion is no longer in production but I found a good used
>> one so we went with it.  Looking much like an Edebrock Torker, the
>> Scorpion is taller with a level carb pad (nice to have in the Pantera
>> which has a level mounted engine and transaxle).  Dave did a lot of
>> work on the entry radius of the ports in Scorpion's plenum.  On the
>> dyno, best power was made with a 1" open spacer and best torque was
>> with a 1" HVH spacer it only dropped a few horsepower and a few lbs-ft
>> of torque without a spacer.   Brian supplied a Holley 750 carburetor
>> (p/n 80528) which I thought might be on the small side for the stroker
>> engine but watching the manifold vacuum during the pulls showed no
>> significant depression so it looks like it's adequate for the 6000 RPM
>> 410C.  It seems snappy and idles clean.  The engine liked 30 degrees
>> for total timing.  Brian will be using a stainless Wilkinson Pantera
>> exhaust system which performed well in previous testing but the engine
>> was tested with the following exhaust on the dyno:
>>
>>  Hooker 351C Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR)
>>  1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries
>>  3" diameter by 8" long collector
>>  12 inch long collector extensions
>>  3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers
>>
>> Based upon the simulation results, I thought we'd hit 500 HP at 6000
>> RPM but the engine really surprised us by making 560 horsepower at
>> 6050 RPM and 526 lbs-ft at 4600 RPM through the dyno exhaust.  Not too
>> shabby for a street cam and factory iron Cleveland heads.  Seems the
>> big port heads really like the extra cubes.  Previous testing has
>> shown the 4V heads also respond to a shorter exhaust rocker ratio and
>> to exhaust port stuffers (MPG Stingers).  It would have been
>> interesting to see if we could squeeze out a few more ponies but I
>> think Brian will be pleased with the results.  He kindly offered to
>> let me use his engine to do back-to-back testing between his iron
>> closed chamber 4V heads and a set of my Ford Motorsport aluminum high
>> ports (ported C302Bs) but with the very cold weather this winter
>> Dave's running a bit behind on the dyno so that testing will have to
>> wait.  The dyno rolls outside the shop and hooks up to an external
>> water source so it needs to be above freezing weather which the latest
>> forecast says won't happen in the next week.  We'll pick back up with
>> testing the C302B heads on my 407 Fontana engine in the spring.  FWIW,
>> the Dynomation simulation predicts another 70 HP for my ported C302B
>> heads and intake.
>>
>> Dan Jones
>>
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