[DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno

[Daniel C Jones]

Please send it again when you get the chance.  Thanks, Dan

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I sent you the details some time ago?
> If you don't have it, I'll send it again tonight when I get home.
>
> Yes, IR EFI
>
> Sent from my iPhone5
> 🇺🇸
>
> On Feb 6, 2014, at 14:43, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>>
>> Is that your independent runner EFI?  What cam did you go with?
>>
>>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>>
>> You're welcome,
>> Dan Jones
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirby Schrader
>> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's good stuff, Dan.
>>> I don't feel too bad... :-)
>>>
>>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>>>
>>> 17 more cubic inches and 16 more HP for Brian.
>>>
>>> Really good stuff!
>>>
>>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The odometer on Brian Hill's 1971 Pantera showed 60K miles but its 351
>>>> Cleveland was burning some oil.  The history of the engine was unknown
>>>> and Brian wanted more power anyway so it was decided to build a
>>>> stroker Cleveland.  Dis-assembly revealed the block had already been
>>>> bored 0.030" but had a few thousandths of wear so was honed to a
>>>> 4.040" bore.  A Scat stroker kit with Probe forged dished pistons, 6"
>>>> rods and a forged steel 4" stroke crank was used to provide 10:1
>>>> compression and a displacement of 410 cubic inches.  The distributor,
>>>> carb, water pump, alternator were new and the McLeod flywheel had been
>>>> recently resurfaced so those parts were re-used, along with the
>>>> Pantera 10 quart oil pan.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the stroker Clevelands we've done have been with aluminum
>>>> heads (Ford Motorsport A3 high ports, Ford Motorsport C302B high
>>>> ports, Brodix BF300 high ports, CHI 3V and 4V, TFS 2V,  etc.) but this
>>>> one was the first in a long time that retained the 1970's era OEM cast
>>>> iron 4V heads.  The heads were rebuilt years ago with replaceable
>>>> bronze guides and had been milled and drilled for screw-in studs and
>>>> guide plates.  Dave McLain machined the spring pockets for double
>>>> springs, installed single groove valves, did a valve job and
>>>> resurfaced the heads.  They looked pretty good so no additional
>>>> porting work was done.  On the SuperFlow bench, they flowed:
>>>>
>>>> Lift    Intake  Exhaust
>>>> Inch    CFM     CFM
>>>> 0.025   13.90   10.90
>>>> 0.050   33.10   26.50
>>>> 0.100   66.40   52.20
>>>> 0.200  140.20   97.90
>>>> 0.300  201.20  129.90
>>>> 0.400  251.40  152.30
>>>> 0.500  290.90  165.50
>>>> 0.600  313.90  172.70
>>>> 0.700  301.70  173.30
>>>> 0.800  303.20  174.70
>>>>
>>>> I used Dynomation to design the cam, starting with the simulation and
>>>> dyno results of the 408C we did for Glen Hartog's Pantera.  That
>>>> engine also used cast iron closed chamber 4V heads but those had some
>>>> short-side radius work and flowed a bit better (322 CFM @ 0.6").
>>>> Compared to the dyno data from Glen's engine, the latest version of
>>>> Dynomation was under-predicting the RPM of the HP peak so I biased my
>>>> goal to make sure the cam would peak at 6000 RPM, providing the best
>>>> average HP between 4000 and a 6500 RPM shift point.  That works well
>>>> for a street driven Pantera with stock gearing and still pulls strong
>>>> at lower RPM.  Rather than use the Bullet lobes we'd used in the past,
>>>> Dave worked with Steve Demos and Mike Ingram to design a couple new
>>>> hydraulic roller lobes.  The lobes are based upon the Ford base
>>>> circle, not the smaller Chevy base circle of the previous Bullet lobes
>>>> we've used. The resulting Demos hydraulic roller cam was checked using
>>>> Cam Analyzer v4.0 and proved to be very close to the requested specs:
>>>>
>>>> Cam # DM238HR/DM242HR, Grind 0001
>>>> 279.3/282.8 advertised duration
>>>> 239.6/242.6 degrees duration @ 0.050"
>>>> 159.8/162.4 degrees duration @ 0.200"
>>>> 0.620"/0.621" intake/exhaust lift (with 1.73:1 rocker arms)
>>>> 109 degrees LSA
>>>> 108 degres ICL
>>>>
>>>> Seat Timing
>>>> Intake Open 28.8 BTDC
>>>> Intake Close 70.5 ABDC
>>>> Exhaust Close 33.8 ATDC
>>>> Exhaust Open 69.7 BBDC
>>>>
>>>> 0.050" timing
>>>> Intake Open 10.8 BTDC
>>>> Intake Close 48.8 ABDC
>>>> Exhaust Close 11.9 ATDC
>>>> Exhaust Open 50.7 BBDC
>>>>
>>>> PBM/Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters were used and the roller
>>>> rockers from the original engine were retained.  Previously, we had
>>>> tested a bunch of intake manifolds on Mike Drew's 408C with CHI 4V
>>>> aluminum heads.  The best of the lot were the Edelbrock Scorpion,
>>>> Holley Strip Dominator and a ported Blue Thunder dual plane.  The
>>>> Edelbrock Scorpion is no longer in production but I found a good used
>>>> one so we went with it.  Looking much like an Edebrock Torker, the
>>>> Scorpion is taller with a level carb pad (nice to have in the Pantera
>>>> which has a level mounted engine and transaxle).  Dave did a lot of
>>>> work on the entry radius of the ports in Scorpion's plenum.  On the
>>>> dyno, best power was made with a 1" open spacer and best torque was
>>>> with a 1" HVH spacer it only dropped a few horsepower and a few lbs-ft
>>>> of torque without a spacer.   Brian supplied a Holley 750 carburetor
>>>> (p/n 80528) which I thought might be on the small side for the stroker
>>>> engine but watching the manifold vacuum during the pulls showed no
>>>> significant depression so it looks like it's adequate for the 6000 RPM
>>>> 410C.  It seems snappy and idles clean.  The engine liked 30 degrees
>>>> for total timing.  Brian will be using a stainless Wilkinson Pantera
>>>> exhaust system which performed well in previous testing but the engine
>>>> was tested with the following exhaust on the dyno:
>>>>
>>>> Hooker 351C Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR)
>>>> 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries
>>>> 3" diameter by 8" long collector
>>>> 12 inch long collector extensions
>>>> 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers
>>>>
>>>> Based upon the simulation results, I thought we'd hit 500 HP at 6000
>>>> RPM but the engine really surprised us by making 560 horsepower at
>>>> 6050 RPM and 526 lbs-ft at 4600 RPM through the dyno exhaust.  Not too
>>>> shabby for a street cam and factory iron Cleveland heads.  Seems the
>>>> big port heads really like the extra cubes.  Previous testing has
>>>> shown the 4V heads also respond to a shorter exhaust rocker ratio and
>>>> to exhaust port stuffers (MPG Stingers).  It would have been
>>>> interesting to see if we could squeeze out a few more ponies but I
>>>> think Brian will be pleased with the results.  He kindly offered to
>>>> let me use his engine to do back-to-back testing between his iron
>>>> closed chamber 4V heads and a set of my Ford Motorsport aluminum high
>>>> ports (ported C302Bs) but with the very cold weather this winter
>>>> Dave's running a bit behind on the dyno so that testing will have to
>>>> wait.  The dyno rolls outside the shop and hooks up to an external
>>>> water source so it needs to be above freezing weather which the latest
>>>> forecast says won't happen in the next week.  We'll pick back up with
>>>> testing the C302B heads on my 407 Fontana engine in the spring.  FWIW,
>>>> the Dynomation simulation predicts another 70 HP for my ported C302B
>>>> heads and intake.
>>>>
>>>> Dan Jones
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com