[DeTomaso] Vadar Inboard Brakes for Pantera

Fri Jan 8 20:55:50 EST 2010

And gosh.... brake dust all over the place....

:-(

Kirby

On 8 Jan 2010, at 7:50 PM, boyd casey wrote:

> I know it's not an apples to apples comparison. I was just suggesting
> another alternative to modifing the brakes  and suspension / drive
> components  and different ways you can throw money at your car. I also
> mis-stated the rotor size as 15.1" It's 13.1 front and 13" rear.  The price
> for the rear billet riser including the CV joints and all the parts except
> the calipers and rotors was $3300. The $5500 Ken quoted is including
> Calipers for all four wheels ,  and Hubs for all four wheels and rotors..
> Ken or German Auto doesn't sell you the calipers so ther is an  element of
> estimate to Kens #. For  comparison purposes some of the vendors quote $8000
> for an equivalent Brembo caliper conversion ( which does not include the
> billet rear riser's , axles, bearings, hubs. CV joints. Just for
> clarification purposes I have no interest in Kens project. I am buying it
> because I think it is a great upgrade and a great value for what your
> getting  , but as far as being involved with it's production or sale I have
> no  involvement and receive no compensation if anyone purchases it.. I have
> mentioned it allot because it is a project conceived and implemented by a
> pantera enthusiast not one of the Pantera vendors and a real effort was made
> to keep the price down . If you have any doubt check the prices for just CV
> joints. I think more people would take advantage of this modification it if
> they knew all the details.
> Boyd
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:18 PM, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I remember now . As ken said if you blow a universal joint you lose the
>> brake on that wheel.That was one off the major concerns brought up about
>> this setup when it was last discussed on the list. When I looked at Jaguars
>> many years ago ( I believe it was an XJ6 ) the rotors where right next to
>> the differential and the Jaguar staff  refereed to them as "In board brakes"
>> Vader claims that their 10.5 " rotor is the equivalent of having a 12.32"
>> rotor. They say with a 60/40 weight  distribution it would be the equivalent
>> of having a 15.75" rotor. They don't say how to get the 60/40  weight
>> distribution. By the time you incorporate the necessary cooling, the parking
>> brake and figure out how to get the 60/40 weight distribution who knows how
>> much it will cost and what you will have. Also won't removing 50 lbs of
>> sprung weight require changes to the springs and shocks?. With Ken Greens
>> help I have Brembo 4 piston calipers from a Porsche 911 Turbo.  They are dot
>> approved (unlike the Wilwoods) and I am able to use a 15.1" rotor so I don't
>> have to wonder about equivalent rotor size I have actual 15.1".  Is Vader
>> really delivering the promised 12.5" equivalent?  or would you have 10.5"
>> rotors that deliver 10.5" performance? The physics behind brake
>> effectiveness are based on the brakes ability to convert energy into heat
>> and dissipate it quickly. Brake fade is caused by brakes over heating and
>> not cooling quickly enough. That's one of the biggest differences between
>> brakes set up for racing and brakes set up for the street. Good street
>> brakes can stop a car quickly in a short distance but they can't do it
>> repeatedly because they can't dissipate the heat. The cooling problems
>> associated with the Vader setups location would give me serious concerns
>> about their usefulness in  a racing application (which is supposedly what
>> they are designed for.) . I don't have the numbers but I believe the Billet
>> riser and CV Joints ( of Ken greens riser / brake conversion) will provide a
>> weight reduction over the stock riser and the half shafts. Plus I will have
>> a better stronger bearing and can now remove my rotors with out the
>> necessity of having a special axle nut tool and  the bearing pressed out. As
>> an aside my 19" 10 spoke wheels would look strange with no brake caliper or
>> rotor showing. Since I am not building a race car I have to keep such
>> mundane things as "Looks" as part of the over all equation. Vader makes very
>> good looking products and I have no reason to doubt any of their claims. The
>> statements made are my opinion and are in part based on hypothesis not
>> facts.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 4:30 PM, GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> I can see several ways of mounting a spot caliper. I don't see it as a
>>> difficult problem to overcome. This side mount could easily be adapted
>>> for one:
>>> 
>>> http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/zfmount/zfm6.jpg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> JDeRyke at aol.com wrote:
>>>> In a message dated 1/8/10 12:07:59 PM, kenn_green at yahoo.com writes:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder if be a parking brake solution for brake upgrades?  Maybe even
>>> a
>>>>> light aluminum disk and a spot caliper would be enough for a parking
>>>>> brake?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> I'd once thought about that, Ken. It would be easy to do- bolting rotors
>>> to
>>>> the inboard stub axle flange. But unless you modify the ZF case, maximum
>>>> possible rotor diameter is about 7-1/2" or thereabout before the rotors
>>> run
>>>> into the case front or the bellhousing. I was never sure this would give
>>>> enough leverage to hold tires on a hill with available mechanical
>>> calipers. I'd
>>>> also thought about adding Chrysler-type contracting-band e-brakes in
>>> there
>>>> somewhere. Chrysler used a single one on the driveshaft rather than two
>>> on the
>>>> axles, and it seemed to work, but it's heavy unless you make absolutely
>>>> everything from billet.
>>>> With Ted's setup, the rotors are outboard enough from the ZF case that
>>> Ted
>>>> says 10-1/2" max OD discs are possible, and one could easily add
>>> mechanical
>>>> calipers for parking brakes to his design. But as I remember, I got
>>>> discouraged by the conversion price of over $2500.... for a
>>> maybe-handling upgrade.
>>>> Sure looks pretty though; photos at <www.tmitch.com>   My 2¢- J DeRyke
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