[DeTomaso] Vadar Inboard Brakes for Pantera

Fri Jan 8 20:50:10 EST 2010

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison. I was just suggesting
another alternative to modifing the brakes  and suspension / drive
components  and different ways you can throw money at your car. I also
mis-stated the rotor size as 15.1" It's 13.1 front and 13" rear.  The price
for the rear billet riser including the CV joints and all the parts except
the calipers and rotors was $3300. The $5500 Ken quoted is including
Calipers for all four wheels ,  and Hubs for all four wheels and rotors..
Ken or German Auto doesn't sell you the calipers so ther is an  element of
estimate to Kens #. For  comparison purposes some of the vendors quote $8000
for an equivalent Brembo caliper conversion ( which does not include the
billet rear riser's , axles, bearings, hubs. CV joints. Just for
clarification purposes I have no interest in Kens project. I am buying it
because I think it is a great upgrade and a great value for what your
getting  , but as far as being involved with it's production or sale I have
no  involvement and receive no compensation if anyone purchases it.. I have
mentioned it allot because it is a project conceived and implemented by a
pantera enthusiast not one of the Pantera vendors and a real effort was made
to keep the price down . If you have any doubt check the prices for just CV
joints. I think more people would take advantage of this modification it if
they knew all the details.
Boyd

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:18 PM, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I remember now . As ken said if you blow a universal joint you lose the
> brake on that wheel.That was one off the major concerns brought up about
> this setup when it was last discussed on the list. When I looked at Jaguars
> many years ago ( I believe it was an XJ6 ) the rotors where right next to
> the differential and the Jaguar staff  refereed to them as "In board brakes"
> Vader claims that their 10.5 " rotor is the equivalent of having a 12.32"
> rotor. They say with a 60/40 weight  distribution it would be the equivalent
> of having a 15.75" rotor. They don't say how to get the 60/40  weight
> distribution. By the time you incorporate the necessary cooling, the parking
> brake and figure out how to get the 60/40 weight distribution who knows how
> much it will cost and what you will have. Also won't removing 50 lbs of
> sprung weight require changes to the springs and shocks?. With Ken Greens
> help I have Brembo 4 piston calipers from a Porsche 911 Turbo.  They are dot
> approved (unlike the Wilwoods) and I am able to use a 15.1" rotor so I don't
> have to wonder about equivalent rotor size I have actual 15.1".  Is Vader
> really delivering the promised 12.5" equivalent?  or would you have 10.5"
> rotors that deliver 10.5" performance? The physics behind brake
> effectiveness are based on the brakes ability to convert energy into heat
> and dissipate it quickly. Brake fade is caused by brakes over heating and
> not cooling quickly enough. That's one of the biggest differences between
> brakes set up for racing and brakes set up for the street. Good street
> brakes can stop a car quickly in a short distance but they can't do it
> repeatedly because they can't dissipate the heat. The cooling problems
> associated with the Vader setups location would give me serious concerns
> about their usefulness in  a racing application (which is supposedly what
> they are designed for.) . I don't have the numbers but I believe the Billet
> riser and CV Joints ( of Ken greens riser / brake conversion) will provide a
> weight reduction over the stock riser and the half shafts. Plus I will have
> a better stronger bearing and can now remove my rotors with out the
> necessity of having a special axle nut tool and  the bearing pressed out. As
> an aside my 19" 10 spoke wheels would look strange with no brake caliper or
> rotor showing. Since I am not building a race car I have to keep such
> mundane things as "Looks" as part of the over all equation. Vader makes very
> good looking products and I have no reason to doubt any of their claims. The
> statements made are my opinion and are in part based on hypothesis not
> facts.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 4:30 PM, GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> I can see several ways of mounting a spot caliper. I don't see it as a
>> difficult problem to overcome. This side mount could easily be adapted
>> for one:
>>
>> http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/zfmount/zfm6.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JDeRyke at aol.com wrote:
>> > In a message dated 1/8/10 12:07:59 PM, kenn_green at yahoo.com writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >> I wonder if be a parking brake solution for brake upgrades?  Maybe even
>> a
>> >> light aluminum disk and a spot caliper would be enough for a parking
>> >> brake?
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I'd once thought about that, Ken. It would be easy to do- bolting rotors
>> to
>> > the inboard stub axle flange. But unless you modify the ZF case, maximum
>> > possible rotor diameter is about 7-1/2" or thereabout before the rotors
>> run
>> > into the case front or the bellhousing. I was never sure this would give
>> > enough leverage to hold tires on a hill with available mechanical
>> calipers. I'd
>> > also thought about adding Chrysler-type contracting-band e-brakes in
>> there
>> > somewhere. Chrysler used a single one on the driveshaft rather than two
>> on the
>> > axles, and it seemed to work, but it's heavy unless you make absolutely
>> > everything from billet.
>> > With Ted's setup, the rotors are outboard enough from the ZF case that
>> Ted
>> > says 10-1/2" max OD discs are possible, and one could easily add
>> mechanical
>> > calipers for parking brakes to his design. But as I remember, I got
>> > discouraged by the conversion price of over $2500.... for a
>> maybe-handling upgrade.
>> > Sure looks pretty though; photos at <www.tmitch.com>   My 2¢- J DeRyke
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