[DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
sean mundy
seanmundy at hotmail.com
Thu Jun 13 02:03:40 EDT 2024
You guys made me go check my dipstick!
[IMG_3442]
On Jun 12, 2024, at 10:35 PM, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
That makes sense, although I'm not sure if I would trust the dipstick
being brazed since I fear that might make the metal a little more
brittle than it already is.
What I might do is have that brazing done but at the same time order a
new dipstick that would be one piece without any cuts or flaws in it.
The last time I changed the oil I did remove the filter and let as much
oil drip out as possible over a couple of hours. I do have what is
supposed to be a 10 qt oil pan so that's why I figured 8 or 9 quarts
would be a good amount, and after running the engine for a minute to
make sure the oil filled the filter, that would be the right place to
mark the dipstick.
I have heard that with a ten quart oil pan you can afford to be a
little low on oil according to the dipstick and still be okay, but I
don't want to overfill because I know that can cause some engine
problems.
Thanks for your help and advice, as always!
Chris
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 10:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
On the early cars the dipstick was too long. The TSB had you cut it,
shorten the spring and re-braze it all back together.
Somebody was clever here with yours, and figured out you could just
overlap the two pieces and rivet them together. At this point I would
probably seek a way to make it more permanent by welding or brazing,
but what you have certainly works.
It sounds like your homemade `full' mark is higher than stock, so you
are likely running extra oil. As long as it's not egregious there is
probably no harm being done.
I found this pic on the interwebs which purports to show both the
length of the dipstick, and also the tube it goes into.
[cid:f7db8ba2-492a-42b9-a4ab-f39c10b13c9f at namprd20.prod.outlook.com]
The claim is that it's 26 inches from the back to the ridge where it
enters the engine, and there is a further 10 inches sticking down
inside the block.
Now, realize that if you measure the outside distance or the inside
distance you will get a notable difference, due to the curvature of the
tube, probably representing 1/4 or 1/2 inch, maybe even more?
Still, this at least gives a general idea.
I would be inclined to believe that your tube is correct, and you have
measured your dipstick and determined it is correct. So the advertised
`full' mark is probably correct. Realize that when you drain the oil
when changing it, it's impossible to get all of the oil out. So you
will install less oil to fill it if it already had oil in it, versus a
completely dry motor. The filter also holds a substantial amount of
oil, nearly a quart by itself. So if you change the oil but don't also
change the filter, it will require about one quart less to fill it up.
You're probably never wrong just using the factory markings, but
similarly you probably are doing no real harm by tossing a bit extra in
there as you appear to be doing.
Cheers!
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 22:09, Christopher Kimball
<chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
I am a dipstick for sure! I went down to measure the dipstick to
see
how long it is, and I realized that I was confusing the Pantera
dipstick with the Fiero dipstick.
The Fierro dipstick is just a flat piece of metal for the entire
length, and I'd forgotten that the Pantera dipstick actually is a
spring-like device.
I measured the dipstick, and from the cup to the tip It's 38
inches,
and it's 35-3/8 inches from the end of the cup to the home-made full
mark.
The imprinted full mark on the dipstick is actually 36-3/8" but that
was the one imprinted on the dipstick not the home-made one.
The motor was redone using a different block, although still a
Cleveland, but it's been almost 18 years since that was done and I
don't remember what the dipstick tube ended up coming from or
whether
it was modified or what.
I just know that after this dipstick was modified when the engine
was
free of oil, we added 8 or 9 quarts, and the full mark was dictated
by
where the oil level was after that much oil had been added.
That's why the current home-made full mark is different than the
mark
imprinted on the end of the dipstick.
I have attached a picture of the pieces of the dipstick that are
riveted together where a piece was actually removed, indicating this
was not an original Pantera dipstick. I don't know if the picture
will
come through the email or not.
Sincerely, Chris.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
YOU are the dipstick.
The standard Pantera dipstick is long and flexible. It has a solid
bit
at the end and a solid bit with a loop at the top. In between is a
long
spring which is where the flexible comes from.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 20:48, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a spring, there is no
spring
anywhere on my dipstick...
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 5:53 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>, DeTomaso Mail List
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
The stock dipstick was nothing more than a standard Mustang
dipstick
chopped in half, with a spring brazed in between the two halves.
You can buy a stock Mustang dipstick anywhere, and have the same
thing
done. They can take the spring from your old dipstick and transfer
it
over.
Or, they can just fix your existing one.
It needs to be exactly 38 inches from the cup to the tip.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 17:47, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
My dipstick broke at the top and is now riveted together, and the
full
level is a mark scored on the stick at the right place. I'm
worried
the rivets will someday give out; is there a place where one can
order
a custom-made dipstick manufactured to a specified length? That
would
alleviate my rivet concerns and also allow the correct marks to be
on
the dipstick.
Sincerely,
Chris
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 2:01 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Everyone seems to get fixated on 9 quarts or 7 quarts and squeezing
oil
into the aftermarket pans, but Ken was on the right track, at the
end
of the day it's about oil level in relation to the rotating
assembly.
If your original dipstick was providing a good oil level in
relation to
the rotating assembly and windage then the mark is equally valid
for
the new pan, and it holds whatever it takes to fill to that mark.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 1:53 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Hi Mike,
I agree on both methods. They are of course a pain in the arse in
either case. No pun intended.
Larry Stock's post indicated it should hold 9 but maybe he was
referring to the Cleveland pan?
I have fixed this on a stock pan in another car with an aftermarket
dipstick. In that case the owner was overfilling just to get oil
to
show on the stick. Then he was blowing oil all over when driving.
We
drained and refilled with the correct number of quarts for a stock
pan,
then shortened the dipstick tube to a correct length.
In this case I have seven quarts in this pan, and the aftermarket
dipstick shows way over the full line with the car on level
concrete.
The stick is actually steel wire and not something I can easily cut
and
braze back together.
I would think a larger capacity pan should take more than five
quarts,
and seven seemed reasonable from checking Aviad's site for that
pan.
I'm mostly trying to verify at this point that seven is a correct
amount with this pan before I'm forced into one of the other
methods.
Thank you,
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
On Jun 11, 2024, at 13:10, Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
AJ,
I find it curious that they claim the Cleveland pan is 9 quarts
while
the nominally identical Windsor unit is only 7 quarts?
Life is made more difficult with an aftermarket dipstick setup.
The quality fix is to remove the pan, insert the dipstick and
either
verify that it is marked properly, or remark it as needed.
Then put that much oil in, however much it is, and remember that
number.
If pulling the pan is too much effort, you can always just buy a
standard 351W dipstick and tube and install that temporarily, fill
the
motor to the appropriate amount, then pull it and refit the custom
Pantera setup and compare the results, and remark as needed.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 11, 2024, at 12:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
All,
On this stroked Windsor is the following pan:
[1]155-55367 SBFW PANTERA PAN W/S
[2]Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at
Replacement
Parts | Page 3 of 3
[3]aviaid.com
[4][wFNi7tReOKIaAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==]
Aviad claims it to be a 7-quart pan. I know based on the shape
that it
should hold more than five. However, does anyone here have
experience
with this pan? There is an aftermarket dipstick installed and I
don't
know if it's been calibrated properly.
If you have this pan on a Windsor, how many quarts to Full on a
stock
dipstick?
Thank you,
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
References
Visible links
1. tel:155-55367
2.
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-------------- next part --------------
You guys made me go check my dipstick!
IMG_3442
On Jun 12, 2024, at 10:35 PM, Christopher Kimball
<chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
That makes sense, although I'm not sure if I would trust the dipstick
being brazed since I fear that might make the metal a little more
brittle than it already is.
What I might do is have that brazing done but at the same time order
a
new dipstick that would be one piece without any cuts or flaws in it.
The last time I changed the oil I did remove the filter and let as
much
oil drip out as possible over a couple of hours. I do have what is
supposed to be a 10 qt oil pan so that's why I figured 8 or 9 quarts
would be a good amount, and after running the engine for a minute to
make sure the oil filled the filter, that would be the right place to
mark the dipstick.
I have heard that with a ten quart oil pan you can afford to be a
little low on oil according to the dipstick and still be okay, but I
don't want to overfill because I know that can cause some engine
problems.
Thanks for your help and advice, as always!
Chris
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 10:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
On the early cars the dipstick was too long. The TSB had you cut it,
shorten the spring and re-braze it all back together.
Somebody was clever here with yours, and figured out you could just
overlap the two pieces and rivet them together. At this point I would
probably seek a way to make it more permanent by welding or brazing,
but what you have certainly works.
It sounds like your homemade `full' mark is higher than stock, so you
are likely running extra oil. As long as it's not egregious there is
probably no harm being done.
I found this pic on the interwebs which purports to show both the
length of the dipstick, and also the tube it goes into.
[cid:f7db8ba2-492a-42b9-a4ab-f39c10b13c9f at namprd20.prod.outlook.com]
The claim is that it's 26 inches from the back to the ridge where it
enters the engine, and there is a further 10 inches sticking down
inside the block.
Now, realize that if you measure the outside distance or the inside
distance you will get a notable difference, due to the curvature of
the
tube, probably representing 1/4 or 1/2 inch, maybe even more?
Still, this at least gives a general idea.
I would be inclined to believe that your tube is correct, and you
have
measured your dipstick and determined it is correct. So the
advertised
`full' mark is probably correct. Realize that when you drain the oil
when changing it, it's impossible to get all of the oil out. So you
will install less oil to fill it if it already had oil in it, versus
a
completely dry motor. The filter also holds a substantial amount of
oil, nearly a quart by itself. So if you change the oil but don't
also
change the filter, it will require about one quart less to fill it
up.
You're probably never wrong just using the factory markings, but
similarly you probably are doing no real harm by tossing a bit extra
in
there as you appear to be doing.
Cheers!
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 22:09, Christopher Kimball
<chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
I am a dipstick for sure! I went down to measure the dipstick to
see
how long it is, and I realized that I was confusing the Pantera
dipstick with the Fiero dipstick.
The Fierro dipstick is just a flat piece of metal for the entire
length, and I'd forgotten that the Pantera dipstick actually is a
spring-like device.
I measured the dipstick, and from the cup to the tip It's 38
inches,
and it's 35-3/8 inches from the end of the cup to the home-made full
mark.
The imprinted full mark on the dipstick is actually 36-3/8" but that
was the one imprinted on the dipstick not the home-made one.
The motor was redone using a different block, although still a
Cleveland, but it's been almost 18 years since that was done and I
don't remember what the dipstick tube ended up coming from or
whether
it was modified or what.
I just know that after this dipstick was modified when the engine
was
free of oil, we added 8 or 9 quarts, and the full mark was dictated
by
where the oil level was after that much oil had been added.
That's why the current home-made full mark is different than the
mark
imprinted on the end of the dipstick.
I have attached a picture of the pieces of the dipstick that are
riveted together where a piece was actually removed, indicating this
was not an original Pantera dipstick. I don't know if the picture
will
come through the email or not.
Sincerely, Chris.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
YOU are the dipstick.
The standard Pantera dipstick is long and flexible. It has a solid
bit
at the end and a solid bit with a loop at the top. In between is a
long
spring which is where the flexible comes from.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 20:48, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a spring, there is no
spring
anywhere on my dipstick...
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 5:53 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>, DeTomaso Mail List
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
The stock dipstick was nothing more than a standard Mustang
dipstick
chopped in half, with a spring brazed in between the two halves.
You can buy a stock Mustang dipstick anywhere, and have the same
thing
done. They can take the spring from your old dipstick and transfer
it
over.
Or, they can just fix your existing one.
It needs to be exactly 38 inches from the cup to the tip.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 17:47, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
My dipstick broke at the top and is now riveted together, and the
full
level is a mark scored on the stick at the right place. I'm
worried
the rivets will someday give out; is there a place where one can
order
a custom-made dipstick manufactured to a specified length? That
would
alleviate my rivet concerns and also allow the correct marks to be
on
the dipstick.
Sincerely,
Chris
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 2:01 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Everyone seems to get fixated on 9 quarts or 7 quarts and squeezing
oil
into the aftermarket pans, but Ken was on the right track, at the
end
of the day it's about oil level in relation to the rotating
assembly.
If your original dipstick was providing a good oil level in
relation to
the rotating assembly and windage then the mark is equally valid
for
the new pan, and it holds whatever it takes to fill to that mark.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 1:53 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Hi Mike,
I agree on both methods. They are of course a pain in the arse in
either case. No pun intended.
Larry Stock's post indicated it should hold 9 but maybe he was
referring to the Cleveland pan?
I have fixed this on a stock pan in another car with an aftermarket
dipstick. In that case the owner was overfilling just to get oil
to
show on the stick. Then he was blowing oil all over when driving.
We
drained and refilled with the correct number of quarts for a stock
pan,
then shortened the dipstick tube to a correct length.
In this case I have seven quarts in this pan, and the aftermarket
dipstick shows way over the full line with the car on level
concrete.
The stick is actually steel wire and not something I can easily cut
and
braze back together.
I would think a larger capacity pan should take more than five
quarts,
and seven seemed reasonable from checking Aviad's site for that
pan.
I'm mostly trying to verify at this point that seven is a correct
amount with this pan before I'm forced into one of the other
methods.
Thank you,
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
On Jun 11, 2024, at 13:10, Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
AJ,
I find it curious that they claim the Cleveland pan is 9 quarts
while
the nominally identical Windsor unit is only 7 quarts?
Life is made more difficult with an aftermarket dipstick setup.
The quality fix is to remove the pan, insert the dipstick and
either
verify that it is marked properly, or remark it as needed.
Then put that much oil in, however much it is, and remember that
number.
If pulling the pan is too much effort, you can always just buy a
standard 351W dipstick and tube and install that temporarily, fill
the
motor to the appropriate amount, then pull it and refit the custom
Pantera setup and compare the results, and remark as needed.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 11, 2024, at 12:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
All,
On this stroked Windsor is the following pan:
[1]155-55367 SBFW PANTERA PAN W/S
[2]Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at
Replacement
Parts | Page 3 of 3
[3]aviaid.com
[4][wFNi7tReOKIaAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==]
Aviad claims it to be a 7-quart pan. I know based on the shape
that it
should hold more than five. However, does anyone here have
experience
with this pan? There is an aftermarket dipstick installed and I
don't
know if it's been calibrated properly.
If you have this pan on a Windsor, how many quarts to Full on a
stock
dipstick?
Thank you,
Asa Jay
Sent via radio waves
References
Visible links
1. tel:155-55367
2.
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References
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[1]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
2.
[2]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
3.
[3]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
4.
[4]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
5. [5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
6. [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. [7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
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2. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
3. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
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5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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