[DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

sean mundy seanmundy at hotmail.com
Thu Jun 13 02:03:40 EDT 2024



You guys made me go check my dipstick!

[IMG_3442]

On Jun 12, 2024, at 10:35 PM, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:

   That makes sense, although I'm not sure if I would trust the dipstick
  being brazed since I fear that might make the metal a little more
  brittle than it already is.

  What I might do is have that brazing done but at the same time order a
  new dipstick that would be one piece without any cuts or flaws in it.

  The last time I changed the oil I did remove the filter and let as much
  oil drip out as possible over a couple of hours. I do have what is
  supposed to be a 10 qt oil pan so that's why I figured 8 or 9 quarts
  would be a good amount, and after running the engine for a minute to
  make sure the oil filled the filter, that would be the right place to
  mark the dipstick.

  I have heard that with a ten quart oil pan you can afford to be a
  little low on oil according to the dipstick and still be okay, but I
  don't want to overfill because I know that can cause some engine
  problems.

  Thanks for your help and advice, as always!

  Chris

  Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
  smartphone

  -------- Original message --------

  From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>

  Date: 6/12/24 10:27 PM (GMT-08:00)

  To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>

  Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

  Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

  Chris,
  On the early cars the dipstick was too long. The TSB had you cut it,
  shorten the spring and re-braze it all back together.
  Somebody was clever here with yours, and figured out you could just
  overlap the two pieces and rivet them together. At this point I would
  probably seek a way to make it more permanent by welding or brazing,
  but what you have certainly works.
  It sounds like your homemade `full' mark is higher than stock, so you
  are likely running extra oil. As long as it's not egregious there is
  probably no harm being done.
  I found this pic on the interwebs which purports to show both the
  length of the dipstick, and also the tube it goes into.
  [cid:f7db8ba2-492a-42b9-a4ab-f39c10b13c9f at namprd20.prod.outlook.com]
  The claim is that it's 26 inches from the back to the ridge where it
  enters the engine, and there is a further 10 inches sticking down
  inside the block.
  Now, realize that if you measure the outside distance or the inside
  distance you will get a notable difference, due to the curvature of the
  tube, probably representing 1/4 or 1/2 inch, maybe even more?
  Still, this at least gives a general idea.
  I would be inclined to believe that your tube is correct, and you have
  measured your dipstick and determined it is correct. So the advertised
  `full' mark is probably correct. Realize that when you drain the oil
  when changing it, it's impossible to get all of the oil out. So you
  will install less oil to fill it if it already had oil in it, versus a
  completely dry motor.  The filter also holds a substantial amount of
  oil, nearly a quart by itself. So if you change the oil but don't also
  change the filter, it will require about one quart less to fill it up.
  You're probably never wrong just using the factory markings, but
  similarly you probably are doing no real harm by tossing a bit extra in
  there as you appear to be doing.
  Cheers!
  Mike
  Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 22:09, Christopher Kimball
  <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:

  I am a dipstick for sure! I went down to measure the dipstick to
  see
how long it is, and I realized that I was confusing the Pantera
dipstick with the Fiero dipstick.
The Fierro dipstick is just a flat piece of metal for the entire
length, and I'd forgotten that the Pantera dipstick actually is a
spring-like device.
 I measured the dipstick, and from the cup to the tip It's 38
  inches,
and it's 35-3/8 inches from the end of the cup to the home-made full
mark.
The imprinted full mark on the dipstick is actually 36-3/8" but that
was the one imprinted on the dipstick not the home-made one.
The motor was redone using a different block, although still a
Cleveland, but it's been almost 18 years since that was done and I
don't remember what the dipstick tube ended up coming from or
  whether
it was modified or what.
I just know that after this dipstick was modified when the engine
  was
free of oil, we added 8 or 9 quarts, and the full mark was dictated
  by
where the oil level was after that much oil had been added.
That's why the current home-made full mark is different than the
  mark
imprinted on the end of the dipstick.
 I have attached a picture of the pieces of the dipstick that are
riveted together where a piece was actually removed, indicating this
was not an original Pantera dipstick. I don't know if the picture
  will
come through the email or not.
Sincerely, Chris.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

Chris,
YOU are the dipstick.
The standard Pantera dipstick is long and flexible. It has a solid
  bit
at the end and a solid bit with a loop at the top. In between is a
  long
spring which is where the flexible comes from.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 20:48, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a spring, there is no
spring
anywhere on my dipstick...
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Date: 6/12/24 5:53 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>, DeTomaso Mail List
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Chris,
The stock dipstick was nothing more than a standard Mustang
dipstick
chopped in half, with a spring brazed in between the two halves.
You can buy a stock Mustang dipstick anywhere, and have the same
thing
done. They can take the spring from your old dipstick and transfer
it
over.
Or, they can just fix your existing one.
It needs to be exactly 38 inches from the cup to the tip.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 12, 2024, at 17:47, Christopher Kimball
<ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:
My dipstick broke at the top and is now riveted together, and the
full
level is a mark scored on the stick at the right place.  I'm
worried
the rivets will someday give out; is there a place where one can
order
a custom-made dipstick manufactured to a specified length?  That
would
alleviate my rivet concerns and also allow the correct marks to be
on
the dipstick.
Sincerely,
Chris
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 2:01 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; Asa Jay Laughton
<asajay at asajay.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Everyone seems to get fixated on 9 quarts or 7 quarts and squeezing
oil
into the aftermarket pans, but Ken was on the right track, at the
end
of the day it's about oil level in relation to the rotating
assembly.
If your original dipstick was providing a good oil level in
relation to
the rotating assembly and windage then the mark is equally valid
for
the new pan, and it holds whatever it takes to fill to that mark.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of
Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 1:53 PM
To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
Hi Mike,
I agree on both methods.  They are of course a pain in the arse in
either case.  No pun intended.
Larry Stock's post indicated it should hold 9 but maybe he was
referring to the Cleveland pan?
I have fixed this on a stock pan in another car with an aftermarket
dipstick.  In that case the owner was overfilling just to get oil
to
show on the stick.  Then he was blowing oil all over when driving.
We
drained and refilled with the correct number of quarts for a stock
pan,
then shortened the dipstick tube to a correct length.
In this case I have seven quarts in this pan, and the aftermarket
dipstick shows way over the full line with the car on level
concrete.
The stick is actually steel wire and not something I can easily cut
and
braze back together.
I would think a larger capacity pan should take more than five
quarts,
and seven seemed reasonable from checking Aviad's site for that
pan.
I'm mostly trying to verify at this point that seven is a correct
amount with this pan before I'm forced into one of the other
methods.
Thank you,
Asa  Jay
Sent via radio waves
On Jun 11, 2024, at 13:10, Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
AJ,
I find it curious that they claim the Cleveland pan is 9 quarts
while
the nominally identical Windsor unit is only 7 quarts?
Life is made more difficult with an aftermarket dipstick setup.
The quality fix is to remove the pan, insert the dipstick and
either
verify that it is marked properly, or remark it as needed.
Then put that much oil in, however much it is, and remember that
number.
If pulling the pan is too much effort, you can always just buy a
standard 351W dipstick and tube and install that temporarily, fill
the
motor to the appropriate amount, then pull it and refit the custom
Pantera setup and compare the results, and remark as needed.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 11, 2024, at 12:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
All,
On this stroked Windsor is the following pan:
[1]155-55367 SBFW PANTERA PAN W/S
[2]Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at
  Replacement
Parts | Page 3 of 3
[3]aviaid.com
[4][wFNi7tReOKIaAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==]
Aviad claims it to be a 7-quart pan.  I know based on the shape
that it
should hold more than five.  However, does anyone here have
experience
with this pan? There is an aftermarket dipstick installed and I
don't
know if it's been calibrated properly.
If you have this pan on a Windsor, how many quarts to Full on a
stock
dipstick?
Thank you,
Asa  Jay
Sent via radio waves
References
Visible links
1. tel:155-55367
2.

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-------------- next part --------------
   You guys made me go check my dipstick!

   IMG_3442

     On Jun 12, 2024, at 10:35 PM, Christopher Kimball
     <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:

     That makes sense, although I'm not sure if I would trust the dipstick
     being brazed since I fear that might make the metal a little more
     brittle than it already is.
     What I might do is have that brazing done but at the same time order
   a
     new dipstick that would be one piece without any cuts or flaws in it.
     The last time I changed the oil I did remove the filter and let as
   much
     oil drip out as possible over a couple of hours. I do have what is
     supposed to be a 10 qt oil pan so that's why I figured 8 or 9 quarts
     would be a good amount, and after running the engine for a minute to
     make sure the oil filled the filter, that would be the right place to
     mark the dipstick.
     I have heard that with a ten quart oil pan you can afford to be a
     little low on oil according to the dipstick and still be okay, but I
     don't want to overfill because I know that can cause some engine
     problems.
     Thanks for your help and advice, as always!
     Chris
     Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
     smartphone
     -------- Original message --------
     From: MIKE DREW <mikeldrew at aol.com>
     Date: 6/12/24 10:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
     To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
     Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
     Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan
     Chris,
     On the early cars the dipstick was too long. The TSB had you cut it,
     shorten the spring and re-braze it all back together.
     Somebody was clever here with yours, and figured out you could just
     overlap the two pieces and rivet them together. At this point I would
     probably seek a way to make it more permanent by welding or brazing,
     but what you have certainly works.
     It sounds like your homemade `full' mark is higher than stock, so you
     are likely running extra oil. As long as it's not egregious there is
     probably no harm being done.
     I found this pic on the interwebs which purports to show both the
     length of the dipstick, and also the tube it goes into.
     [cid:f7db8ba2-492a-42b9-a4ab-f39c10b13c9f at namprd20.prod.outlook.com]
     The claim is that it's 26 inches from the back to the ridge where it
     enters the engine, and there is a further 10 inches sticking down
     inside the block.
     Now, realize that if you measure the outside distance or the inside
     distance you will get a notable difference, due to the curvature of
   the
     tube, probably representing 1/4 or 1/2 inch, maybe even more?
     Still, this at least gives a general idea.
     I would be inclined to believe that your tube is correct, and you
   have
     measured your dipstick and determined it is correct. So the
   advertised
     `full' mark is probably correct. Realize that when you drain the oil
     when changing it, it's impossible to get all of the oil out. So you
     will install less oil to fill it if it already had oil in it, versus
   a
     completely dry motor.  The filter also holds a substantial amount of
     oil, nearly a quart by itself. So if you change the oil but don't
   also
     change the filter, it will require about one quart less to fill it
   up.
     You're probably never wrong just using the factory markings, but
     similarly you probably are doing no real harm by tossing a bit extra
   in
     there as you appear to be doing.
     Cheers!
     Mike
     Sent from my iPad

     On Jun 12, 2024, at 22:09, Christopher Kimball

     <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:

       I am a dipstick for sure! I went down to measure the dipstick to

     see

     how long it is, and I realized that I was confusing the Pantera

     dipstick with the Fiero dipstick.

     The Fierro dipstick is just a flat piece of metal for the entire

     length, and I'd forgotten that the Pantera dipstick actually is a

     spring-like device.

      I measured the dipstick, and from the cup to the tip It's 38

     inches,

     and it's 35-3/8 inches from the end of the cup to the home-made full

     mark.

     The imprinted full mark on the dipstick is actually 36-3/8" but that

     was the one imprinted on the dipstick not the home-made one.

     The motor was redone using a different block, although still a

     Cleveland, but it's been almost 18 years since that was done and I

     don't remember what the dipstick tube ended up coming from or

     whether

     it was modified or what.

     I just know that after this dipstick was modified when the engine

     was

     free of oil, we added 8 or 9 quarts, and the full mark was dictated

     by

     where the oil level was after that much oil had been added.

     That's why the current home-made full mark is different than the

     mark

     imprinted on the end of the dipstick.

      I have attached a picture of the pieces of the dipstick that are

     riveted together where a piece was actually removed, indicating this

     was not an original Pantera dipstick. I don't know if the picture

     will

     come through the email or not.

     Sincerely, Chris.

     Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable

     smartphone

     -------- Original message --------

     From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>

     Date: 6/12/24 9:02 PM (GMT-08:00)

     To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>

     Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

     Chris,

     YOU are the dipstick.

     The standard Pantera dipstick is long and flexible. It has a solid

     bit

     at the end and a solid bit with a loop at the top. In between is a

     long

     spring which is where the flexible comes from.

     Mike

     Sent from my iPad

     On Jun 12, 2024, at 20:48, Christopher Kimball

     <ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:

     I'm not sure what you mean when you say a spring, there is no

     spring

     anywhere on my dipstick...

     Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable

     smartphone

     -------- Original message --------

     From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>

     Date: 6/12/24 5:53 PM (GMT-08:00)

     To: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>

     Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Asa Jay Laughton

     <asajay at asajay.com>, DeTomaso Mail List

     <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

     Chris,

     The stock dipstick was nothing more than a standard Mustang

     dipstick

     chopped in half, with a spring brazed in between the two halves.

     You can buy a stock Mustang dipstick anywhere, and have the same

     thing

     done. They can take the spring from your old dipstick and transfer

     it

     over.

     Or, they can just fix your existing one.

     It needs to be exactly 38 inches from the cup to the tip.

     Mike

     Sent from my iPad

     On Jun 12, 2024, at 17:47, Christopher Kimball

     <ChrisVKimball at msn.com> wrote:

     My dipstick broke at the top and is now riveted together, and the

     full

     level is a mark scored on the stick at the right place.  I'm

     worried

     the rivets will someday give out; is there a place where one can

     order

     a custom-made dipstick manufactured to a specified length?  That

     would

     alleviate my rivet concerns and also allow the correct marks to be

     on

     the dipstick.

     Sincerely,

     Chris

     __________________________________________________________________

     From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf

     of

     Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>

     Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 2:01 PM

     To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>; Asa Jay Laughton

     <asajay at asajay.com>

     Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

     Everyone seems to get fixated on 9 quarts or 7 quarts and squeezing

     oil

     into the aftermarket pans, but Ken was on the right track, at the

     end

     of the day it's about oil level in relation to the rotating

     assembly.

     If your original dipstick was providing a good oil level in

     relation to

     the rotating assembly and windage then the mark is equally valid

     for

     the new pan, and it holds whatever it takes to fill to that mark.

     Julian

     ________________________________

     From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf

     of

     Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

     Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 1:53 PM

     To: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>

     Cc: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>

     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Aviad pan

     Hi Mike,

     I agree on both methods.  They are of course a pain in the arse in

     either case.  No pun intended.

     Larry Stock's post indicated it should hold 9 but maybe he was

     referring to the Cleveland pan?

     I have fixed this on a stock pan in another car with an aftermarket

     dipstick.  In that case the owner was overfilling just to get oil

     to

     show on the stick.  Then he was blowing oil all over when driving.

     We

     drained and refilled with the correct number of quarts for a stock

     pan,

     then shortened the dipstick tube to a correct length.

     In this case I have seven quarts in this pan, and the aftermarket

     dipstick shows way over the full line with the car on level

     concrete.

     The stick is actually steel wire and not something I can easily cut

     and

     braze back together.

     I would think a larger capacity pan should take more than five

     quarts,

     and seven seemed reasonable from checking Aviad's site for that

     pan.

     I'm mostly trying to verify at this point that seven is a correct

     amount with this pan before I'm forced into one of the other

     methods.

     Thank you,

     Asa  Jay

     Sent via radio waves

     On Jun 11, 2024, at 13:10, Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:

     AJ,

     I find it curious that they claim the Cleveland pan is 9 quarts

     while

     the nominally identical Windsor unit is only 7 quarts?

     Life is made more difficult with an aftermarket dipstick setup.

     The quality fix is to remove the pan, insert the dipstick and

     either

     verify that it is marked properly, or remark it as needed.

     Then put that much oil in, however much it is, and remember that

     number.

     If pulling the pan is too much effort, you can always just buy a

     standard 351W dipstick and tube and install that temporarily, fill

     the

     motor to the appropriate amount, then pull it and refit the custom

     Pantera setup and compare the results, and remark as needed.

     Mike

     Sent from my iPad

     On Jun 11, 2024, at 12:53, Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso

     <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:

     All,

     On this stroked Windsor is the following pan:

     [1]155-55367 SBFW PANTERA PAN W/S

     [2]Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at

     Replacement

     Parts | Page 3 of 3

     [3]aviaid.com

     [4][wFNi7tReOKIaAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==]

     Aviad claims it to be a 7-quart pan.  I know based on the shape

     that it

     should hold more than five.  However, does anyone here have

     experience

     with this pan? There is an aftermarket dipstick installed and I

     don't

     know if it's been calibrated properly.

     If you have this pan on a Windsor, how many quarts to Full on a

     stock

     dipstick?

     Thank you,

     Asa  Jay

     Sent via radio waves

     References

     Visible links

     1. tel:155-55367

     2.

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     References

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     [1]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html

     2.

     [2]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html

     3.

     [3]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html

     4.

     [4]https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html

     5. [5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

     6. [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

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   References
     1. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
     2. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
     3. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
     4. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss3.html
     5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
     6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
     7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
     8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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