[DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Sun Sep 4 16:06:07 EDT 2022
I have been told that the EV batteries are a bunch of little batteries in one housing. The bad batteries can be replaced. If we knew the failure mode this would mean a lot more.
On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 10:11:10 AM PDT, Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Will, what does "...the battery pack died...." mean.
An ICE engine can be rebuilt with new parts, etc. So, the battery
can't be rebuilt internally?? Maybe they will invent a new "potion" to
pour into the battery? Possibly, that will be a whole new local
industry, like a local auto repair shop?
That is a lot of miles on a car, by the way! ---BILL L
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 12:38 PM
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; Konrad Szwab
<kszwab at gmail.com>; Detomaso List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>;
Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
The batteries are a real problem.
My 2001 Honda Insight got 73mpg when it was new. It drove like a
typical compact.
The battery pack died at 70K miles. The cost to replace was $4K at the
dealer. I did it myself for $1.2K. As stated, you can buy a lot of
gas for $1.2K.
The second battery pack died after another 60K miles. This time I
replaced it with a "better battery". It was $1K.
The third battery pack died after another 60K miles. I replaced it one
final time. This one lasted about 50K miles.
We put 250K miles on the Insight. We loved the car. I just got turned
off at having to change batteries, plus as they age, they take longer
to charge. That's from my experience, anyway.
Those doing math realize 70K + 60K + 60K + 50K = 240K. For the other
10K, we drove with a dead battery. Yes, you can do that on this type
of hybrid. The battery only serves as to boost the engine under high
load situations - acceleration, passing, etc. It's a real turd without
the battery.
Btw, I don't know if they're still doing it, but there was a company
that converted Honda Insights to a Honda S2000 drivetrain - and they
still got 40-45mpg!! So, a big part of the Insight's MPG is the aero,
plus the weight. They were under 2,000 lbs.
On 9/3/22, 7:56 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Julian Kift"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Although EV batteries are expensive, the invoice is for a
first-generation Chevy Volt NiMH battery, it's an antique for
which GM
no longer supports or manufacturers the battery. If you are
determined
to keep an old obsolete antique on the road it can add up.....!
Some of the OEM's are developing swappable cells so there won't
be a
need to replace the whole unit for a defective cell. The average
modern
Li-ion battery has 3,500+ charge life, with a range of 400
miles,
that's 1.4M miles or 93 years for the average driver of 15,000
miles
annually.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Ken Green via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 3:30 PM
To: Konrad Szwab <kszwab at gmail.com>; Detomaso List
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Larry Stock
<larrys at panteraparts.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
You can buy a lot of gas for $27,000:
On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 01:57:05 PM PDT, Larry Stock
<larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
I think Electric cars have their place in society just like
Trucks and
golf carts do.
Larry
On 9/2/22, 1:49 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Konrad Szwab"
<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
kszwab at gmail.com> wrote:
I think electric cars are the way of the future, for
better or
worse,
due to governmental regulation. I hate my cars being
demonized by
these
arrogant "holier than thou" hypocrites, personally,
although at
some
point I do plan to get an electric car just to get used to
it. I
think
as commuter cars for going to work they are great and that
is
about it.
I still recall about a year ago the pissed off looks a
Tesla
driving
dude was giving me when my now dead truck was idling
nicely with
the
exhaust perfectly placed near his open window at a
stoplight. The
V8
being a straight pipe the noise was an added factor for
Konrad
enjoying
himself being a total ass :)
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 3:42 PM Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
A A Yes, I see that often now, there's a proliferation
of
Tesla's
here in
A A Reno with the Gigafactory close by.
A A I drove my first Tesla about a month ago in
Montreal,
rental
cars were
A A in high demand, and all they had available was a
Tesla 3.
Once
I
A A figured out the card (key) swipe to make it work it
was
easy. I
have to
A A say that rush and pinning to the seat as you press
the go
pedal
hard is
A A exhilarating, but (and it's a big butt) everything
else
was
just
A A boring, there is literally nothing else to get
excited
about,
it has no
A A soul, it gets you from A to B in a utilitarian
there's an
'app
for
A A that' kind of way. On the interaction side I found
it
annoying
more
A A than anything (in a kind of nagging wife way) and I
ended
up
navigating
A A using my iPhone for a more direct route.
A A So, to answer your question, I think it's more of a
case
of the
only
A A pleasure one can derive from driving a Tesla is the
instantaneous
A A torque away from the lights, after that the battery
efficiency
warning
A A light comes on and one is chastised into
fictitiously
saving
the planet
A A once more.
A A Julian
A A
A
__________________________________________________________________
A A From: DeTomaso
<[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
A A Corey Price <[3]coreyjprice at gmail.com>
A A Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 12:52 PM
A A To: Detomaso List
<[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A Subject: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
A A So reading about Konrad's unfortunate experience,
he
mentioned
A A something about Tesla drivers. I have had multiple
Tesla
drivers
A A wanting to race me since I got my Pantera on the
street.
The
first one
A A was interesting and I let him go, not wanting to
race on
the
street.
A A The next few got annoying and I wanted nothing to
do with
that.
I'll
A A enjoy my car the way I want to, thank you. Anyone
else
experienced this
A A sudden desire of Tesla owners to race you?
A A Corey
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-------------- next part --------------
I have been told that the EV batteries are a bunch of little batteries
in one housing. The bad batteries can be replaced. If we knew the
failure mode this would mean a lot more.
On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 10:11:10 AM PDT, Bill Lewis
<lotus0005 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Will, what does "...the battery pack died...." mean.
An ICE engine can be rebuilt with new parts, etc. So, the battery
can't be rebuilt internally?? Maybe they will invent a new "potion"
to
pour into the battery? Possibly, that will be a whole new local
industry, like a local auto repair shop?
That is a lot of miles on a car, by the way! ---BILL L
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Will Kooiman <[2]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 12:38 PM
To: Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com>; Konrad Szwab
<[4]kszwab at gmail.com>; Detomaso List
<[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>;
Larry Stock <[6]larrys at panteraparts.com>; Ken Green
<[7]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
The batteries are a real problem.
My 2001 Honda Insight got 73mpg when it was new. It drove like a
typical compact.
The battery pack died at 70K miles. The cost to replace was $4K at
the
dealer. I did it myself for $1.2K. As stated, you can buy a lot of
gas for $1.2K.
The second battery pack died after another 60K miles. This time I
replaced it with a "better battery". It was $1K.
The third battery pack died after another 60K miles. I replaced it
one
final time. This one lasted about 50K miles.
We put 250K miles on the Insight. We loved the car. I just got
turned
off at having to change batteries, plus as they age, they take longer
to charge. That's from my experience, anyway.
Those doing math realize 70K + 60K + 60K + 50K = 240K. For the other
10K, we drove with a dead battery. Yes, you can do that on this type
of hybrid. The battery only serves as to boost the engine under high
load situations - acceleration, passing, etc. It's a real turd
without
the battery.
Btw, I don't know if they're still doing it, but there was a company
that converted Honda Insights to a Honda S2000 drivetrain - and they
still got 40-45mpg!! So, a big part of the Insight's MPG is the
aero,
plus the weight. They were under 2,000 lbs.
On 9/3/22, 7:56 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Julian Kift"
<[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[9]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Although EV batteries are expensive, the invoice is for a
first-generation Chevy Volt NiMH battery, it's an antique for
which GM
no longer supports or manufacturers the battery. If you are
determined
to keep an old obsolete antique on the road it can add
up.....!
Some of the OEM's are developing swappable cells so there
won't
be a
need to replace the whole unit for a defective cell. The
average
modern
Li-ion battery has 3,500+ charge life, with a range of 400
miles,
that's 1.4M miles or 93 years for the average driver of
15,000
miles
annually.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[10]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>
on
behalf of
Ken Green via DeTomaso <[11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 3:30 PM
To: Konrad Szwab <[12]kszwab at gmail.com>; Detomaso List
<[13]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Larry Stock
<[14]larrys at panteraparts.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
You can buy a lot of gas for $27,000:
On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 01:57:05 PM PDT, Larry
Stock
<[15]larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
I think Electric cars have their place in society just like
Trucks and
golf carts do.
Larry
On 9/2/22, 1:49 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Konrad Szwab"
<[16]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[17]kszwab at gmail.com> wrote:
I think electric cars are the way of the future, for
better or
worse,
due to governmental regulation. I hate my cars being
demonized by
these
arrogant "holier than thou" hypocrites, personally,
although at
some
point I do plan to get an electric car just to get used
to
it. I
think
as commuter cars for going to work they are great and
that
is
about it.
I still recall about a year ago the pissed off looks a
Tesla
driving
dude was giving me when my now dead truck was idling
nicely with
the
exhaust perfectly placed near his open window at a
stoplight. The
V8
being a straight pipe the noise was an added factor for
Konrad
enjoying
himself being a total ass :)
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 3:42 PM Julian Kift
<[1][18]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
A A Yes, I see that often now, there's a
proliferation
of
Tesla's
here in
A A Reno with the Gigafactory close by.
A A I drove my first Tesla about a month ago in
Montreal,
rental
cars were
A A in high demand, and all they had available was a
Tesla 3.
Once
I
A A figured out the card (key) swipe to make it work
it
was
easy. I
have to
A A say that rush and pinning to the seat as you
press
the go
pedal
hard is
A A exhilarating, but (and it's a big butt)
everything
else
was
just
A A boring, there is literally nothing else to get
excited
about,
it has no
A A soul, it gets you from A to B in a utilitarian
there's an
'app
for
A A that' kind of way. On the interaction side I
found
it
annoying
more
A A than anything (in a kind of nagging wife way)
and I
ended
up
navigating
A A using my iPhone for a more direct route.
A A So, to answer your question, I think it's more
of a
case
of the
only
A A pleasure one can derive from driving a Tesla is
the
instantaneous
A A torque away from the lights, after that the
battery
efficiency
warning
A A light comes on and one is chastised into
fictitiously
saving
the planet
A A once more.
A A Julian
A A
A
__________________________________________________________________
A A From: DeTomaso
<[2][19]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
A A Corey Price <[3][20]coreyjprice at gmail.com>
A A Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 12:52 PM
A A To: Detomaso List
<[4][21]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
A A Subject: [DeTomaso] Tesla Drivers???
A A So reading about Konrad's unfortunate
experience,
he
mentioned
A A something about Tesla drivers. I have had
multiple
Tesla
drivers
A A wanting to race me since I got my Pantera on the
street.
The
first one
A A was interesting and I let him go, not wanting to
race on
the
street.
A A The next few got annoying and I wanted nothing
to
do with
that.
I'll
A A enjoy my car the way I want to, thank you.
Anyone
else
experienced this
A A sudden desire of Tesla owners to race you?
A A Corey
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1. mailto:[57]julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:[58]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:[59]coreyjprice at gmail.com
4. mailto:[60]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:[61]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6.
[62]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
r
7.
[63]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fve
r.detomasolist.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3
d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnk
nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi
LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jeEiMejv%2B85oshkKzBl2%2BHRO5VWNnU
gmGzE%2B0tJtPno%3D&reserved=0
8.
[64]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
rver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7
C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C
1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JY
njWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
9. mailto:[65]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10.
[66]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
rver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7
C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C
1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JY
njWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
11.
[67]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
rver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7
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1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
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njWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
12.
[68]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
rver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7
C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C
1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JY
njWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
13. [69]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14. [70]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
4. mailto:kszwab at gmail.com
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
7. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
10. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:kszwab at gmail.com
13. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
15. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
16. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
17. mailto:kszwab at gmail.com
18. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
19. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
20. mailto:coreyjprice at gmail.com
21. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%
24. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
25. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
26. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
27. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
28. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
29. mailto:coreyjprice at gmail.com
30. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
32. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
33. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fver
34. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
35. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
36. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
37. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
38. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
39. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
40. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
41. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
42. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
43. mailto:coreyjprice at gmail.com
44. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
45. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
46. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
47. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fver
48. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
49. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
50. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
51. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
52. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fse
53. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
54. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
55. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
56. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
57. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
58. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
59. mailto:coreyjprice at gmail.com
60. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
61. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
62. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fser
63. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fver.detomasolist.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jeEiMejv%2B85oshkKzBl2%2BHRO5VWNnUgmGzE%2B0tJtPno%3D&reserved=0
64. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JYnjWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
65. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
66. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JYnjWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
67. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JYnjWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
68. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C30f3d92b1a94498f6c7108da8dfbef3d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637978410476058561%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JYnjWCKKY7watsvzg7%2BLs7Mpq85TuJ6IMoe%2FebfGgM8%3D&reserved=0
69. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
70. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
71. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
72. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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