[DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Steven Edwards
gsedwards at cox.net
Sun Nov 6 10:08:20 EST 2022
This is a 427 Dart block Ford 351 base, C302 heads, solid roller cam for a 72 Pantera
Steven Edwards
From: Will Kooiman
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2022 8:28 AM
To: Charles Engles; 'Ken Green'; 'Dan'; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Hi Chuck,
True. The 9.2" deck height Dart block is similar enough to a 351C that you could do this swap and most people wouldn't notice.
351C headers fit perfectly.
The bellhousing is the same, so the ZF bolts up with no changes.
The Dart block is beefier. The block bulges out a bit at the cylinders, plus there are some stiffening ribs. I had to grind on the motor mounts to get them to fit. Not a big deal - maybe 1/4" of aluminum removed in a non-critical area.
You need a 351W style oil pan, but if you're doing an Armando pan, it's not a big deal. One plus is you can run a one-piece 351W oil pan gasket.
The China wall is 351W style, which juts out a bit, whereas a 351C juts inward. One again, not a big deal. You just screw a small piece of aluminum to the bottom of the intake, and it seals just fine. I learned that trick from Tom Upton.
351W and 351C distributors are the same. The only difference is the gear. So, buy a 351W gear for your 351C distributor, and you're done.
The water neck/thermostat housing can be a small challenge. I already had A3 heads with water coming out the front of the heads and a remote thermostat, so mine was easy. If you want to retain the stock look, you have to figure this one out.
You can use off-the-shelf 302/5.0, 351W camshafts, but multiply lifts by (1.73/1.6) to get the true lift. I ran a Ford Motorsports X303 for a while, but finally had one custom made for my combination (from Brent Lykins - very happy with this camshaft).
You have to use a 351W timing cover, fuel pump, and water pump.
The stock Pantera dipstick fits in a 351W timing cover. It was nice to not have to figure that one out.
I have a bulkhead reduction kit, which relocates the a/c compressor and alternator down and to the passenger's side. It fits the Dart block.
The Dart block accepts factory roller camshafts - with that sheet metal retainer. So, you can use factory hydraulic roller lifters if you want.
Will.
On 11/6/22, 9:06 AM, "Charles Engles" <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
Dear Will,
I seem to recall that the Ford SVO and perhaps the Dart Windsor blocks with the 9.2" deck height, permit you to bolt on Cleveland heads and intake manifolds and headers. Is that right?
Does it use the same motor mounts and ZF bellhousing?
Curious, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Kooiman [mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2022 5:40 AM
To: Ken Green; 'Dan'; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Charles Engles
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
How about the cost?
If you have a .030 block with 1-2 damaged cylinders and if you are happy with your .030 pistons, just do 2 sleeves.
If you go back to standard, you have to buy 8 pistons, plus you need to rebalance, and for what?
What if you sonic test, and 2 more cylinders are thin?
If I had a machinist I trusted, I would be okay with 8 sleeves.
I didn't do that. Instead, I went with a 9.2" deck Dart block. Yes, I had to switch to a Windsor oil pan, oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, cam, and distributor gear (dist is the same, only the gear is different). But the Dart block is so much better, it's amazing.
On 11/6/22, 12:38 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Ken Green via DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
These folks have sleeves from 1/16 to 1/8 thickness. The 1/16 would
require a minimum amount of material removal. Does that make a
difference?
[1]https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/faqs
Ken
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 06:17:17 PM PDT, Charles Engles
<cengles at cox.net> wrote:
Dear Dan,
Hmmm. Yes, the experts can be wrong.
However, regarding the shop in business for forty years
that says they can sleeve all eight and it will be fine, stop for a
minute and ask yourself: "If that is true, then why do people fret
trying to find a good solid Cleveland block? Why do people go to the
effort to get them sonic checked for wall thickness? WHY do they do
that, IF the simple answer is to take any old 351C and simply sleeve
all eight cylinders???? Possibly, just possibly, because while it
can be done, the durability and longevity are dubious and poor??
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan [mailto:[2]dan at excaliburre.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2022 4:40 PM
To: 'Charles Engles'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Yeah, I was hoping someone had been down this path before.
After so many screw-ups at supposedly top notch engine shops I don't
know who to trust in that industry either.
The shop which has the engine now has been in business 40 years and
says they can sleeve all eight and it will be fine. But I'm not "sold".
Probably on SBC or GM big block but Cleveland's have such thin walls.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Engles <[3]cengles at cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 12:15 PM
To: 'Dan Courtney' <[4]dan at excaliburre.com>; 'MICHAEL DREW'
<[5]mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: [6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Dear Dan,
The answers to the question are: 1) seek out a
reputable and reliable machinist and engine builder with actual
Cleveland experience and follow his recommendations; or 2) seek out
amateur, non-machinist, hear-say opinions and sort out the truth from
the (dis?) information.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:[7]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf Of Dan Courtney
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2022 10:57 AM
To: MICHAEL DREW
Cc: [8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Then the question becomes:Is it better to have a .030 block with one or
two non adjacent sleeves or a fully sleeved block at original bore?I've
been told you get heat transfer between cylinders on a Cleveland at or
over .030.And we all know there's already too much heat in a Pantera
engine. DanSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: MICHAEL DREW
<[9]mikeldrew at aol.com> Date: 11/4/22 8:14 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Dan
<[10]dan at excaliburre.com> Cc: [11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve Dan,Sleeving all
eight cylinders is like putting eight plugs in a flat tire with one
hole in it!If you have a block that needs one or two sleeves, you
install one or two sleeves. MikeSent from my iPhone> On Nov 4, 2022, at
18:13, Dan <[12]dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:> > i>>? I'm having handful
of 351C blocks sonic tested.> > One is the Boss 351 that Dennis Quella
built for "The Winged Warrior"> in the early `80's.> > I'm wondering
if it would be advisable to sleeve all 8 cylinders to> bring it back
to original bore.> > Another option is to sleeve just one or two holes
and go with .030.> > > A 3^rd option is to sleeve two cylinders on an
original bore 2 bolt> block.> > > Over the years I've received advice
regarding sleeves from sleeving all> 8 holes makes for a stronger
block to sleeving a Cleveland can> interfere with the water jackets.>
> > Does anyone have an opinion on sleeving a 351C?> > > Dan> > > >
> Dan Courtney> > La Jolla, CA> > > [1][13]Dan at excaliburre.com> >
References> > 1. mailto:[14]Dan at excaliburre.com>
_______________________________________________> > > Detomaso Email
List is not managed by POCA> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5
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References
1. https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/faqs
2. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
5. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
8. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
10. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
13. mailto:Dan at excaliburre.com
14. mailto:Dan at excaliburre.com
15. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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-------------- next part --------------
This is a 427 Dart block Ford 351 base, C302 heads, solid roller cam
for a 72 Pantera
[cid:image001.jpg at 01D8F1BF.4F5EA580]
Steven Edwards
From: [1]Will Kooiman
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2022 8:28 AM
To: [2]Charles Engles; [3]'Ken Green'; [4]'Dan';
[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Hi Chuck,
True. The 9.2" deck height Dart block is similar enough to a 351C that
you could do this swap and most people wouldn't notice.
351C headers fit perfectly.
The bellhousing is the same, so the ZF bolts up with no changes.
The Dart block is beefier. The block bulges out a bit at the
cylinders, plus there are some stiffening ribs. I had to grind on the
motor mounts to get them to fit. Not a big deal - maybe 1/4" of
aluminum removed in a non-critical area.
You need a 351W style oil pan, but if you're doing an Armando pan, it's
not a big deal. One plus is you can run a one-piece 351W oil pan
gasket.
The China wall is 351W style, which juts out a bit, whereas a 351C juts
inward. One again, not a big deal. You just screw a small piece of
aluminum to the bottom of the intake, and it seals just fine. I
learned that trick from Tom Upton.
351W and 351C distributors are the same. The only difference is the
gear. So, buy a 351W gear for your 351C distributor, and you're done.
The water neck/thermostat housing can be a small challenge. I already
had A3 heads with water coming out the front of the heads and a remote
thermostat, so mine was easy. If you want to retain the stock look,
you have to figure this one out.
You can use off-the-shelf 302/5.0, 351W camshafts, but multiply lifts
by (1.73/1.6) to get the true lift. I ran a Ford Motorsports X303 for
a while, but finally had one custom made for my combination (from Brent
Lykins - very happy with this camshaft).
You have to use a 351W timing cover, fuel pump, and water pump.
The stock Pantera dipstick fits in a 351W timing cover. It was nice to
not have to figure that one out.
I have a bulkhead reduction kit, which relocates the a/c compressor and
alternator down and to the passenger's side. It fits the Dart block.
The Dart block accepts factory roller camshafts - with that sheet metal
retainer. So, you can use factory hydraulic roller lifters if you
want.
Will.
On 11/6/22, 9:06 AM, "Charles Engles" <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
Dear Will,
I seem to recall that the Ford SVO and perhaps the
Dart Windsor blocks with the 9.2" deck height, permit you to bolt on
Cleveland heads and intake manifolds and headers. Is that right?
Does it use the same motor mounts and ZF
bellhousing?
Curious, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Kooiman [mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2022 5:40 AM
To: Ken Green; 'Dan'; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Charles
Engles
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
How about the cost?
If you have a .030 block with 1-2 damaged cylinders and if you are
happy with your .030 pistons, just do 2 sleeves.
If you go back to standard, you have to buy 8 pistons, plus you
need to rebalance, and for what?
What if you sonic test, and 2 more cylinders are thin?
If I had a machinist I trusted, I would be okay with 8 sleeves.
I didn't do that. Instead, I went with a 9.2" deck Dart block.
Yes, I had to switch to a Windsor oil pan, oil pump, fuel pump, water
pump, cam, and distributor gear (dist is the same, only the gear is
different). But the Dart block is so much better, it's amazing.
On 11/6/22, 12:38 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Ken Green via
DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
These folks have sleeves from 1/16 to 1/8 thickness. The
1/16 would
require a minimum amount of material removal. Does that
make a
difference?
[1]https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/faqs
Ken
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 06:17:17 PM PDT, Charles
Engles
<cengles at cox.net> wrote:
Dear Dan,
Hmmm. Yes, the experts can be wrong.
However, regarding the shop in business for
forty years
that says they can sleeve all eight and it will be fine,
stop for a
minute and ask yourself: "If that is true, then why do people
fret
trying to find a good solid Cleveland block? Why do people
go to the
effort to get them sonic checked for wall thickness? WHY do
they do
that, IF the simple answer is to take any old 351C and
simply sleeve
all eight cylinders???? Possibly, just possibly,
because while it
can be done, the durability and longevity are dubious and
poor??
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan [mailto:[2]dan at excaliburre.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2022 4:40 PM
To: 'Charles Engles'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Yeah, I was hoping someone had been down this path before.
After so many screw-ups at supposedly top notch engine shops
I don't
know who to trust in that industry either.
The shop which has the engine now has been in business 40
years and
says they can sleeve all eight and it will be fine. But I'm
not "sold".
Probably on SBC or GM big block but Cleveland's have such
thin walls.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Engles <[3]cengles at cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 12:15 PM
To: 'Dan Courtney' <[4]dan at excaliburre.com>; 'MICHAEL DREW'
<[5]mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: [6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Dear Dan,
The answers to the question are: 1) seek
out a
reputable and reliable machinist and engine builder with
actual
Cleveland experience and follow his recommendations; or 2)
seek out
amateur, non-machinist, hear-say opinions and sort out the
truth from
the (dis?) information.
Warmest regards, Chuck
Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso
[mailto:[7]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf Of Dan Courtney
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2022 10:57 AM
To: MICHAEL DREW
Cc: [8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Then the question becomes:Is it better to have a .030 block
with one or
two non adjacent sleeves or a fully sleeved block at
original bore?I've
been told you get heat transfer between cylinders on a
Cleveland at or
over .030.And we all know there's already too much heat in a
Pantera
engine. DanSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: MICHAEL DREW
<[9]mikeldrew at aol.com> Date: 11/4/22 8:14 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Dan
<[10]dan at excaliburre.com> Cc:
[11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] To sleeve or not to sleeve
Dan,Sleeving all
eight cylinders is like putting eight plugs in a flat tire
with one
hole in it!If you have a block that needs one or two
sleeves, you
install one or two sleeves. MikeSent from my iPhone> On Nov
4, 2022, at
18:13, Dan <[12]dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:> > i>>? I'm
having handful
of 351C blocks sonic tested.> > One is the Boss 351 that
Dennis Quella
built for "The Winged Warrior"> in the early `80's.> > I'm
wondering
if it would be advisable to sleeve all 8 cylinders to>
bring it back
to original bore.> > Another option is to sleeve just one
or two holes
and go with .030.> > > A 3^rd option is to sleeve two
cylinders on an
original bore 2 bolt> block.> > > Over the years I've
received advice
regarding sleeves from sleeving all> 8 holes makes for a
stronger
block to sleeving a Cleveland can> interfere with the water
jackets.>
> > Does anyone have an opinion on sleeving a 351C?> > >
Dan> > > >
> Dan Courtney> > La Jolla, CA> > >
[1][13]Dan at excaliburre.com> >
References> > 1. mailto:[14]Dan at excaliburre.com>
_______________________________________________> > >
Detomaso Email
List is not managed by POCA> Posted emails must not exceed
1.5
Megabytes> DeTomaso mailing list>
[15]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
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manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use
the links above.> > Members who post to this list grant
license to the
list to forward any message posted here to all past,
current, or future
members of the list. They also grant the list owner
permission to
maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list
messages.
_______________________________________________
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References
1. https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/faqs
2. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
4. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
5. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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References
1. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
4. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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