[DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 216, Issue 20
Lee Davis
davisbmw1 at aol.com
Thu Jun 23 12:32:40 EDT 2022
I’ve had an offer on EBay for the bumpers. Please go eBay to place an offer. The item is posted as Pantera Original Bumpers. Thanks,Lee
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On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 12:00 PM, detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
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Daily Detomaso List Digest
Today's Topics:
1. 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale (Garth Rodericks)
2. 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale (Garth Rodericks)
3. Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors (Mike & Elizabeth)
4. Re: Installing 3-bolt Aerostar window motors (Mike & Elizabeth)
5. Re: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors (Julian Kift)
6. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT (audionut at hushmail.com)
7. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT (jderyke at aol.com)
8. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT (Larry Stock)
9. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT (jderyke at aol.com)
10. Re: Source for electric speedo sender for the ZF? (Will Kooiman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:49:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Garth Rodericks <garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale
Message-ID: <1997174335.7414348.1655916545121 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Just the messenger...? Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other cars.? Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
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1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
-Black with Black interior with White accents, Black carpeting, 26,000 Original Miles, 5.8 liter (351ci) Ford Cl...
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-------------- next part --------------
Just the messenger... Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other
cars. Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
[1]1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
[ebay.png]
1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
-Black with Black interior with White accents, Black carpeting, 26,000
Original Miles, 5.8 liter (351ci) Ford Cl...
References
Visible links
1. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
Hidden links:
3. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:50:06 +0000 (UTC)
From: Garth Rodericks <garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale
Message-ID: <736396995.7392528.1655916606426 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Just the messenger...? Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other cars.? Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
-------------- next part --------------
Just the messenger... Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other
cars. Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
[1]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
References
1. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:33:54 -0700
From: "Mike & Elizabeth" <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
To: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID: <021901d8865e$3eb88ec0$bc29ac40$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's
website, but that one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window
regulators are sitting on my bench so no removal assistance is needed,
but can someone provide me with the instructions on how to do the
conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:16:55 -0700
From: "Mike & Elizabeth" <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
To: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Installing 3-bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID: <048e01d88664$41532810$c3f97830$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
That's 3-bolt . .
From: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:34 AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
That's 3-bolt . .
From: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:34 AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's
website, but that one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window
regulators are sitting on my bench so no removal assistance is needed,
but can someone provide me with the instructions on how to do the
conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:19:35 +0000
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>,
"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID:
<BYAPR03MB39733734C72B10B085DB4E0A95B29 at BYAPR03MB3973.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not to be facetious, it's the same as the 4-bolt but you will have a bolt left over....
Line up the motor so the gear drive meshes with the drive arm, mark holes and drill. It may become more obvious once you have everything laid out in front of you.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:33 AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
Not to be facetious, it's the same as the 4-bolt but you will have a
bolt left over....
Line up the motor so the gear drive meshes with the drive arm, mark
holes and drill. It may become more obvious once you have everything
laid out in front of you.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:33 AM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but
that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are
sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide
me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:31:46 -0700
From: audionut at hushmail.com
To: "MICHAEL DREW" <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <20220622183146.BE3F7801FEE at smtp.hushmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dumb car?!?! Okay, that's it, Mike! I'm going to buy the famous Pink
Panther and bring it back to original just to piss you off! ; ]
Playboy meaningless? Come on, now. This was an American icon if ever
there was one. Ford + Ghia + Playboy = Indisputable Classic Early
70's. And what's wrong with pink? Pink is elegant & sexy unless
one is afraid of being perceived as "less than manly" or something.
To repeatedly put my ass down inside the Pantera exactly where Liv's
was? Sign me up!
Sent using Hushmail
On 6/21/2022 at 9:34 PM, "MICHAEL DREW" wrote:Because the Playboy
Pantera was a fundamentally dumb car. It was probably very little
used, in great shape, and VERY cheap at one point in time due to the
stupid color. The Playboy history is rather meaningless.
Which made it a perfect donor car for this kind of restomodifixation.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 11:49, audionut--- via DeTomaso wrote:
>
> ? bummer!
>
> I was hoping to see a pink (at least mostly) stocker.
>
>
>
> why the hell would anyone would buy the Playboy Pantera and then
do
> some lame build?
> Sent using Hushmail
> On 6/21/2022 at 7:51 AM, "Mike & Elizabeth"
> wrote:
>
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT. Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared. I'm sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
> [1]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
>
> References
>
> 1. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Dumb car?!?! Okay, that's it, Mike! I'm going to buy the famous Pink
Panther and bring it back to original just to piss you off! ; ]
Playboy meaningless? Come on, now. This was an American icon if ever
there was one. Ford + Ghia + Playboy = Indisputable Classic Early
70's.
And what's wrong with pink? Pink is elegant & sexy unless one is
afraid of being perceived as "less than manly" or something.
To repeatedly put my ass down inside the Pantera exactly where Liv's
was? Sign me up!
Sent using Hushmail
On 6/21/2022 at 9:34 PM, "MICHAEL DREW" <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
Because the Playboy Pantera was a fundamentally dumb car. It was
probably very little used, in great shape, and VERY cheap at one
point in time due to the stupid color. The Playboy history is rather
meaningless.
Which made it a perfect donor car for this kind of
restomodifixation.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 11:49, audionut--- via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> i>>? bummer!
>
> I was hoping to see a pink (at least mostly) stocker.
>
>
>
> why the hell would anyone would buy the Playboy Pantera and then
do
> some lame build?
> Sent using Hushmail
> On 6/21/2022 at 7:51 AM, "Mike & Elizabeth"
<mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT. Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared. I'm sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
> [1][1]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
>
> References
>
> 1. [2]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
2. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
From: jderyke at aol.com
To: "lplugw at hotmail.com" <lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <2141779587.4093392.1655924796583 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below 0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was 0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it didn't.?
I have a souvenir?piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test 030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it wasn't even my car!)? It was running fine but after my run the owner noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe.??The owner sleeved that one thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? It?s certainly more important in one axis than the other.
It?s hard to picture how removing another .005? (about as thick as two sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
>? Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so many
>? years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block before
>? an overhaul.? The rest of you guys, listen up-
>? One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
>? years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
>? day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about it
>? at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
>? followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the non-sonic-tested
>? block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
>? skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
>? oil use.? So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
>? the early Pantera new in '71....
>? Cheers- J DeRyke
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>? Cc: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>? Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
>? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
>? ? amateurish installation in the engine bay
>? ? I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A? Below is
>? ? what I posted on BaT:
>? ? Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A? Rather, it's more of a
>? ? reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
>? ? style canted valve heads.A? This engine is the reverse with Windsor
>? ? inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A? Requires some custom parts
>? ? like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
>? ? valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
>? ? intake/head/block combination.A? Notice the hack job on the Windsor
>? ? intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A? Also,
>? @BaT
>? ? the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000 RPM
>? ? on a dynamometer.A? Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
>? ? simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP and
>? ? 495 ft-lbs.A? Remember the first rule of simulation software is
>? GIGO.A
>? ? The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good thing
>? as
>? ? the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock 5
>? ? quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
>? ? questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT company)
>? ? rods out the side of the block.A? There's also a potential issue with
>? ? the top ring placement.A? Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
>? ? clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
>? ? placed.A? Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
>? bueno.A
>? ? This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
>? reasonable
>? ? ring pack.A? The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin height
>? of
>? ? around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A? The paperwork suggests the crank is a
>? ? 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A? That would be a custom crank stroke so I
>? ? suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast crank
>? ? which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
>? stroke
>? ? would be over 397 cubic inches).A? Stroker math is simple and
>? suggests
>? ? that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of 1.075
>? ? inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
>? Also,
>? ? I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild paperwork.A
>? ? Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
>? over
>? ? and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing is
>? ? highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
>? ? Dan Jones
>? ? On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
>? <[1][1]cengles at cox.net>
>? ? wrote:
>? ? ? Dear Mike,
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? I think the recipient has aged a bit better
>? ? ? than the Pantera.
>? ? ? IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no longer
>? ? ? pink, it
>? ? ? was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A? More astounding is that it was in
>? ? ? Oklahoma
>? ? ? and for sale several years ago.A? I cannot recall the price.
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
>? ? ? Pantera with a
>? ? ? clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous lines,
>? ? ? wires,
>? ? ? hoses, remote filters, etc.A? It looked like one should back away
>? ? ? slowly and
>? ? ? carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A In the BaT pictures, I can still see residua
>? ? ? of its previous
>? ? ? condition around the edges of some of the photos.A? I am interested
>? ? ? in the
>? ? ? BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
>? ? ? story.
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? Warmest regards, Chuck
>? ? ? Engles
>? ? ? -----Original Message-----
>? ? ? From: DeTomaso
>? [mailto:[2][2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
>? ? ? On Behalf
>? ? ? Of Mike & Elizabeth
>? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
>? ? ? To: [3][3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? ? Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>? ? ? The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
>? ? ? sale in
>? ? ? BaT.A? Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A? I'm
>? sure
>? ? ? it's aged
>? ? ? better then it's recipient.
>? ? ? [4][4]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? ? ? Mike Thomas
>? ? ? _______________________________________________
>? ? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>? ? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>? ? ? DeTomaso mailing list
>? ? ? [5][5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? ? [6][6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? ? ? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>? ? ? etc.) use the links above.
>? ? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
>? ? ? the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
>? ? ? archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>? References
>? ? 1. mailto:[7]cengles at cox.net
>? ? 2. mailto:[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 3. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 4. [10]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? ? 5. mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 6. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? _______________________________________________
>? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>? DeTomaso mailing list
>? [13]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>? use the links above.
>? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>? message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>? or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
>? 1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>? 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? 3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 4. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? 5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? 7. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>? 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? 9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 10. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? 11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? 13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [5][5][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
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> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
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> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:[7][10]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[8][11]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[10][13]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[11][14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6.
[12][15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [13][16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [14][17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[18]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[19]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[20]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [21]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:[24]cengles at cox.net
> 8. mailto:[25]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. [27]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [32]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [33]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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References
1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
20. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
21. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
24. mailto:cengles at cox.net
25. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
26. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
27. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
28. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
30. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
32. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
33. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:14:31 -0700
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: <jderyke at aol.com>, "lplugw at hotmail.com" <lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <A1E7D2F5-FD25-4162-90B5-DB578056BCEC at panteraparts.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are heavier, as they couldn?t cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings never seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all 4 cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [5][5][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
[6][6][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:[7][10]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[8][11]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[10][13]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[11][14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6.
[12][15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [13][16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [14][17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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etc.)
> use the links above.
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> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
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> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[18]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[19]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[20]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [21]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:[24]cengles at cox.net
> 8. mailto:[25]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. [27]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References
1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
20. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
21. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
24. mailto:cengles at cox.net
25. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
26. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
27. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
28. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
30. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
32. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
33. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 20:22:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: jderyke at aol.com
To: "larrys at panteraparts.com" <larrys at panteraparts.com>,
"lplugw at hotmail.com" <lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <545099914.1375141.1655929345757 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
That first mentioned was indeed your old SS block. I still have it and use it when I need to check something inside a block that would ruin it if I cut a window in the cast iron. Never throw ANYTHING away from a Pantera!
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com; lplugw at hotmail.com <lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are heavier, as they couldn?t cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings never seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all 4 cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
? ? ? Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
? ? ? cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
? ? ? that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
? ? ? 0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
? ? ? itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
? ? ? 0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
? ? ? virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
? ? ? didn't.
? ? ? I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a
? ? ? silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
? ? ? 030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
? ? ? gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the
? ? ? starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
? ? ? wasn't even my car!)? It was running fine but after my run the owner
? ? ? noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe.? The owner sleeved that one
? ? ? thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
? ? ? thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
? ? ? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
? ? ? To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
? ? ? Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
? ? ? detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
? ? ? Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
? ? ? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas certainly
? ? ? more important in one axis than the other.
? ? ? Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick as two
? ? ? sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would
? ? ? render an engine block useless.
? ? ? Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks
? ? ? like?
? ? ? Sent from my iPhone
? ? ? > On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
? ? ? <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
? ? ? >
? ? ? >? Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
? ? ? many
? ? ? >? years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
? ? ? before
? ? ? >? an overhaul.? The rest of you guys, listen up-
? ? ? >? One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
? ? ? >? years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
? ? ? >? day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about
? ? ? it
? ? ? >? at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
? ? ? >? followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
? ? ? non-sonic-tested
? ? ? >? block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
? ? ? >? skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
? ? ? >? oil use.? So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
? ? ? >? the early Pantera new in '71....
? ? ? >? Cheers- J DeRyke
? ? ? >? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? >? From: Daniel C Jones <[2]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
? ? ? >? Cc: detomaso <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
? ? ? >? Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
? ? ? >? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? >> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
? ? ? >? ? amateurish installation in the engine bay
? ? ? >? ? I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A? Below
? ? ? is
? ? ? >? ? what I posted on BaT:
? ? ? >? ? Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A? Rather, it's more of a
? ? ? >? ? reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
? ? ? >? ? style canted valve heads.A? This engine is the reverse with
? ? ? Windsor
? ? ? >? ? inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A? Requires some custom
? ? ? parts
? ? ? >? ? like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
? ? ? >? ? valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
? ? ? >? ? intake/head/block combination.A? Notice the hack job on the
? ? ? Windsor
? ? ? >? ? intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A? Also,
? ? ? >? @BaT
? ? ? >? ? the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000
? ? ? RPM
? ? ? >? ? on a dynamometer.A? Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
? ? ? >? ? simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
? ? ? and
? ? ? >? ? 495 ft-lbs.A? Remember the first rule of simulation software is
? ? ? >? GIGO.A
? ? ? >? ? The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
? ? ? thing
? ? ? >? as
? ? ? >? ? the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock
? ? ? 5
? ? ? >? ? quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
? ? ? >? ? questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
? ? ? company)
? ? ? >? ? rods out the side of the block.A? There's also a potential issue
? ? ? with
? ? ? >? ? the top ring placement.A? Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
? ? ? >? ? clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
? ? ? >? ? placed.A? Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
? ? ? >? bueno.A
? ? ? >? ? This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
? ? ? >? reasonable
? ? ? >? ? ring pack.A? The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
? ? ? height
? ? ? >? of
? ? ? >? ? around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A? The paperwork suggests the crank is
? ? ? a
? ? ? >? ? 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A? That would be a custom crank stroke so
? ? ? I
? ? ? >? ? suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
? ? ? crank
? ? ? >? ? which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
? ? ? >? stroke
? ? ? >? ? would be over 397 cubic inches).A? Stroker math is simple and
? ? ? >? suggests
? ? ? >? ? that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
? ? ? 1.075
? ? ? >? ? inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
? ? ? >? Also,
? ? ? >? ? I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
? ? ? paperwork.A
? ? ? >? ? Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
? ? ? >? over
? ? ? >? ? and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
? ? ? is
? ? ? >? ? highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
? ? ? >? ? Dan Jones
? ? ? >? ? On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
? ? ? >? <[1][1][4]cengles at cox.net>
? ? ? >? ? wrote:
? ? ? >? ? ? Dear Mike,
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? I think the recipient has aged a bit better
? ? ? >? ? ? than the Pantera.
? ? ? >? ? ? IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
? ? ? longer
? ? ? >? ? ? pink, it
? ? ? >? ? ? was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A? More astounding is that it was
? ? ? in
? ? ? >? ? ? Oklahoma
? ? ? >? ? ? and for sale several years ago.A? I cannot recall the price.
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
? ? ? >? ? ? Pantera with a
? ? ? >? ? ? clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
? ? ? lines,
? ? ? >? ? ? wires,
? ? ? >? ? ? hoses, remote filters, etc.A? It looked like one should back
? ? ? away
? ? ? >? ? ? slowly and
? ? ? >? ? ? carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
? ? ? residua
? ? ? >? ? ? of its previous
? ? ? >? ? ? condition around the edges of some of the photos.A? I am
? ? ? interested
? ? ? >? ? ? in the
? ? ? >? ? ? BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
? ? ? >? ? ? story.
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? Warmest regards, Chuck
? ? ? >? ? ? Engles
? ? ? >? ? ? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? >? ? ? From: DeTomaso
? ? ? >? [mailto:[2][2][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
? ? ? >? ? ? On Behalf
? ? ? >? ? ? Of Mike & Elizabeth
? ? ? >? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
? ? ? >? ? ? To: [3][3][6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? ? Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? >? ? ? The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
? ? ? >? ? ? sale in
? ? ? >? ? ? BaT.A? Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A? I'm
? ? ? >? sure
? ? ? >? ? ? it's aged
? ? ? >? ? ? better then it's recipient.
? ? ? >
? ? ? [4][4][7]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? ? ? Mike Thomas
? ? ? >? ? ? _______________________________________________
? ? ? >? ? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? >? ? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? >? ? ? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? >? ? ? [5][5][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >
? ? ? [6][6][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? ? ? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
? ? ? >? ? ? etc.) use the links above.
? ? ? >? ? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
? ? ? forward
? ? ? >? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
? ? ? of
? ? ? >? ? ? the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
? ? ? an
? ? ? >? ? ? archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? ? >? References
? ? ? >? ? 1. mailto:[7][10]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? ? 2. mailto:[8][11]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 3. mailto:[9][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 4.
? ? ? [10][13]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? ? 5. mailto:[11][14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 6.
? ? ? [12][15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? _______________________________________________
? ? ? >? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? >? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? >? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? >? [13][16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? [14][17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
? ? ? etc.)
? ? ? >? use the links above.
? ? ? >? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
? ? ? any
? ? ? >? message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
? ? ? >? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
? ? ? archive
? ? ? >? or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? ? >
? ? ? > References
? ? ? >
? ? ? >? 1. mailto:[18]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? 2. mailto:[19]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 3. mailto:[20]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 4. [21]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? 5. mailto:[22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 6. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? 7. mailto:[24]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? 8. mailto:[25]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 10. [27]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 12. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 14. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? > _______________________________________________
? ? ? >
? ? ? >
? ? ? > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? > DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? > [32]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? > [33]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >
? ? ? > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
? ? ? use the links above.
? ? ? >
? ? ? > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
? ? ? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
? ? ? or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? References
? ? ? 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 2. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
? ? ? 3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 4. mailto:cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 7. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 13. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 19. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 20. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 21. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 24. mailto:cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 25. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 26. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 27. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 28. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 30. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 32. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 33. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? _______________________________________________
? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
That first mentioned was indeed your old SS block. I still have it and
use it when I need to check something inside a block that would ruin it
if I cut a window in the cast iron. Never throw ANYTHING away from a
Pantera!
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com; lplugw at hotmail.com <lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of
while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art
casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are
heavier, as they couldnat cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were
bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were
usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not
usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings never
seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all 4
cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack
enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
i>>?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via
DeTomaso" <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[2]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not
have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls
below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that
sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that
was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the
size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic
test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on
100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire
on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the
owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved
that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <[3]lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: [4]jderyke at aol.com <[5]jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: [6]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <[7]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas
certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick
as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040
would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really
looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1][10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after
so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C
block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored
0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use
from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me
about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of
back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings
were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal
and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had
bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2][11]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a
clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A
Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's
more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with
Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some
custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the
inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the
odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A
Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over
10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers
into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of
498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software
is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a
good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that
stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of
those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential
issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for
valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring
can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is
no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the
crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank
stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series
cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement
(3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple
and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height
of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to
last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at
0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic
testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4][13]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit
better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was
no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it
was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the
price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a
tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should
back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still
see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious
back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,
Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2][5][14]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6][15]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year
is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV
flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7][16]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82
/
> Mike Thomas
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[10][13][22]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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[12][15][24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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> 10.
[27][36]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28][37]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12.
[29][38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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4. mailto:[46]cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:[47]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:[48]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7.
[49]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
8. mailto:[50]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. [51]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:[53]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:[54]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13.
[55]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
14. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. [57]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. [59]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:[60]cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:[61]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
20. mailto:[62]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
21.
[63]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
22. mailto:[64]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. [65]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
24. mailto:[66]cengles at cox.net
25. mailto:[67]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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27.
[69]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
28. mailto:[70]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. [71]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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7. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
8. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. mailto:cengles at cox.net
14. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
15. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
16. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
19. mailto:cengles at cox.net
20. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
21. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
23. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
25. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
26. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
27. mailto:cengles at cox.net
28. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
29. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
30. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
31. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
32. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
33. mailto:cengles at cox.net
34. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
35. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
36. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
37. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
39. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
41. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
43. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
44. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
45. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
46. mailto:cengles at cox.net
47. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
48. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
49. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
50. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
51. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
53. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
54. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
55. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
56. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
57. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
58. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
59. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
60. mailto:cengles at cox.net
61. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
62. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
63. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
64. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
65. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
66. mailto:cengles at cox.net
67. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
68. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
69. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
70. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
71. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
72. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
73. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
74. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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76. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:08:35 -0400
From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
To: <dnunn at telus.net>, <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Source for electric speedo sender for the ZF?
Message-ID: <59712994-BB6E-432C-B63F-47B1C87941A4 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thanks Dave,
I just ordered a box from Speed Hut. It does what you describe.
I never woulda thunk such a thing existed.
It states that it has multiple inputs. It has GPS input, but you can also use VSS, and it will use both or either. Details on their website.
I actually still have a VSS from Milwaukee Speedometer Service. Once it arrives, I'll post how well it works. I'll try it with VSS, GPS, and both to see if there is a difference either way.
Btw, it comes with a 3' cable. I chose the VW cable, since it said the speedo side was M18 x 1.5.
Will.
?On 6/15/22, 12:48 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of David Nunn" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of dnunn at telus.net> wrote:
I had my OEM Veglia speedo converted to electric operation by North
Hollywood Speedometer. All they do is take the electric drive motor out
of an electric speedo and attach it to the main drive shaft of the OEM
speedo. It all fits within the OEM speedo case. The only clue that it's
now an electric speedo is the pigtail hanging out of it! The electric
motor now turns the speedo instead of a cable. The odometer and trip
odometer are untouched and work as before. I used the motor from an Si
speedo but any electric speedo motor will work. I suppose you could
even use an Autometer stepper-motor speedo's electric motor. I use an
Autometer GPS sending unit too. It works perfectly with my Si speedo
motor. The beauty of a GPS sending unit is, it's very easy to calibrate
and is accurate to 1 metre.
Since I no longer needed a speedo cable, I purchased a VSS from
Milwaukee Speedometer Service to replace the angle drive on my ZF. The
VSS supplies the signals for my EZ Electric power steering and fuel
injection ECU.
Dave
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------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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------------------------------
End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 216, Issue 20
*****************************************
-------------- next part --------------
Iave had an offer on EBay for the bumpers. Please go eBay to place an
offer. The item is posted as Pantera Original Bumpers.
Thanks,
Lee
[1]Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 12:00 PM,
detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com
<detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of DeTomaso digest..."
Daily Detomaso List Digest
Today's Topics:
1. 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale (Garth Rodericks)
2. 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale (Garth Rodericks)
3. Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors (Mike & Elizabeth)
4. Re: Installing 3-bolt Aerostar window motors (Mike & Elizabeth)
5. Re: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors (Julian Kift)
6. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT ([6]audionut at hushmail.com)
7. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT ([7]jderyke at aol.com)
8. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT (Larry Stock)
9. Re: Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT ([8]jderyke at aol.com)
10. Re: Source for electric speedo sender for the ZF? (Will Kooiman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:49:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Garth Rodericks <[9]garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List <[10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale
Message-ID: <[11]1997174335.7414348.1655916545121 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Just the messenger...? Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other
cars.? Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
|
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
-Black with Black interior with White accents, Black carpeting, 26,000
Original Miles, 5.8 liter (351ci) Ford Cl...
|
|
|
-------------- next part --------------
Just the messenger... Stumbled upon this one while browsing some
other
cars. Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
[1]1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
[ebay.png]
1974 De Tomaso Pantera L | eBay
-Black with Black interior with White accents, Black carpeting,
26,000
Original Miles, 5.8 liter (351ci) Ford Cl...
References
Visible links
1. [12]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
Hidden links:
3. [13]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:50:06 +0000 (UTC)
From: Garth Rodericks <[14]garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List <[15]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 1974 De Tomaso Pantera L 26501 Miles for sale
Message-ID: <[16]736396995.7392528.1655916606426 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Just the messenger...? Stumbled upon this one while browsing some other
cars.? Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
[17]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
-------------- next part --------------
Just the messenger... Stumbled upon this one while browsing some
other
cars. Looks nice, but not inexpensive!
[1][18]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
References
1. [19]https://www.ebay.com/itm/203968488641
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:33:54 -0700
From: "Mike & Elizabeth" <[20]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
To: <[21]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID: <021901d8865e$3eb88ec0$bc29ac40$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but
that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are
sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide
me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's
website, but that one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window
regulators are sitting on my bench so no removal assistance is
needed,
but can someone provide me with the instructions on how to do the
conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:16:55 -0700
From: "Mike & Elizabeth" <[22]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
To: <[23]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Installing 3-bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID: <048e01d88664$41532810$c3f97830$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
That's 3-bolt . .
From: Mike & Elizabeth <[24]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:34 AM
To: [25]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but
that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are
sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide
me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
That's 3-bolt . .
From: Mike & Elizabeth <[26]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:34 AM
To: [27]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's
website, but that one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window
regulators are sitting on my bench so no removal assistance is
needed,
but can someone provide me with the instructions on how to do the
conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:19:35 +0000
From: Julian Kift <[28]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Mike & Elizabeth <[29]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>,
"[30]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[31]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
Message-ID:
<[32]BYAPR03MB39733734C72B10B085DB4E0A95B29 at BYAPR03MB3973.namprd03.prod
.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not to be facetious, it's the same as the 4-bolt but you will have a
bolt left over....
Line up the motor so the gear drive meshes with the drive arm, mark
holes and drill. It may become more obvious once you have everything
laid out in front of you.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[33]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Mike & Elizabeth <[34]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:33 AM
To: [35]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[36]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website, but
that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are
sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone provide
me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
-------------- next part --------------
Not to be facetious, it's the same as the 4-bolt but you will have a
bolt left over....
Line up the motor so the gear drive meshes with the drive arm, mark
holes and drill. It may become more obvious once you have everything
laid out in front of you.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[37]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Mike & Elizabeth <[38]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 10:33 AM
To: [39]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[40]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Installing -bolt Aerostar window motors
I have a pair of the 3-bolt Ford Aerostar window motors for 6328. I
have
pulled down the conversion instructions from Mike Dailey's website,
but
that
one is for the preferred 4-bolt motors. The window regulators are
sitting
on my bench so no removal assistance is needed, but can someone
provide
me
with the instructions on how to do the conversion to the 3-bolt
motors?
Thanks
Mike Thomas
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:31:46 -0700
From: [41]audionut at hushmail.com
To: "MICHAEL DREW" <[42]mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: [43]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <[44]20220622183146.BE3F7801FEE at smtp.hushmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dumb car?!?! Okay, that's it, Mike! I'm going to buy the famous Pink
Panther and bring it back to original just to piss you off! ; ]
Playboy meaningless? Come on, now. This was an American icon if ever
there was one. Ford + Ghia + Playboy = Indisputable Classic Early
70's. And what's wrong with pink? Pink is elegant & sexy unless
one is afraid of being perceived as "less than manly" or something.
To repeatedly put my ass down inside the Pantera exactly where Liv's
was? Sign me up!
Sent using Hushmail
On 6/21/2022 at 9:34 PM, "MICHAEL DREW" wrote:Because the Playboy
Pantera was a fundamentally dumb car. It was probably very little
used, in great shape, and VERY cheap at one point in time due to the
stupid color. The Playboy history is rather meaningless.
Which made it a perfect donor car for this kind of restomodifixation.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 11:49, audionut--- via DeTomaso wrote:
>
> ? bummer!
>
> I was hoping to see a pink (at least mostly) stocker.
>
>
>
> why the hell would anyone would buy the Playboy Pantera and then
do
> some lame build?
> Sent using Hushmail
> On 6/21/2022 at 7:51 AM, "Mike & Elizabeth"
> wrote:
>
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT. Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared. I'm sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
> [1][45]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
>
> References
>
> 1. [46]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [47]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [48]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Dumb car?!?! Okay, that's it, Mike! I'm going to buy the famous
Pink
Panther and bring it back to original just to piss you off! ; ]
Playboy meaningless? Come on, now. This was an American icon if
ever
there was one. Ford + Ghia + Playboy = Indisputable Classic Early
70's.
And what's wrong with pink? Pink is elegant & sexy unless one is
afraid of being perceived as "less than manly" or something.
To repeatedly put my ass down inside the Pantera exactly where Liv's
was? Sign me up!
Sent using Hushmail
On 6/21/2022 at 9:34 PM, "MICHAEL DREW" <[49]mikeldrew at aol.com>
wrote:
Because the Playboy Pantera was a fundamentally dumb car. It was
probably very little used, in great shape, and VERY cheap at one
point in time due to the stupid color. The Playboy history is
rather
meaningless.
Which made it a perfect donor car for this kind of
restomodifixation.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 11:49, audionut--- via DeTomaso
<[50]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> i>>? bummer!
>
> I was hoping to see a pink (at least mostly) stocker.
>
>
>
> why the hell would anyone would buy the Playboy Pantera and then
do
> some lame build?
> Sent using Hushmail
> On 6/21/2022 at 7:51 AM, "Mike & Elizabeth"
<[51]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT. Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared. I'm sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[1][1][52]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
>
> References
>
> 1.
[2][53]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [54]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3][55]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [56]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
2. [57]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
3. [58]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
From: [59]jderyke at aol.com
To: "[60]lplugw at hotmail.com" <[61]lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "[62]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[63]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <[64]2141779587.4093392.1655924796583 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.?
I have a souvenir?piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!)? It was running fine but after my run the owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe.??The owner sleeved that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <[65]lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: [66]jderyke at aol.com <[67]jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: [68]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <[69]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
[70]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[71]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? It?s certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
It?s hard to picture how removing another .005? (about as thick as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[72]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
>? Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
many
>? years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
before
>? an overhaul.? The rest of you guys, listen up-
>? One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
>? years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
>? day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about
it
>? at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
>? followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
>? block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
>? skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
>? oil use.? So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
>? the early Pantera new in '71....
>? Cheers- J DeRyke
>? -----Original Message-----
>? From: Daniel C Jones <[73]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>? Cc: detomaso <[74]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>? Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
>? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
>? ? amateurish installation in the engine bay
>? ? I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A? Below
is
>? ? what I posted on BaT:
>? ? Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A? Rather, it's more of a
>? ? reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
>? ? style canted valve heads.A? This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
>? ? inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A? Requires some custom
parts
>? ? like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
>? ? valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
>? ? intake/head/block combination.A? Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
>? ? intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A? Also,
>? @BaT
>? ? the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000
RPM
>? ? on a dynamometer.A? Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
>? ? simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
and
>? ? 495 ft-lbs.A? Remember the first rule of simulation software is
>? GIGO.A
>? ? The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
thing
>? as
>? ? the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock
5
>? ? quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
>? ? questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
>? ? rods out the side of the block.A? There's also a potential issue
with
>? ? the top ring placement.A? Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
>? ? clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
>? ? placed.A? Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
>? bueno.A
>? ? This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
>? reasonable
>? ? ring pack.A? The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
>? of
>? ? around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A? The paperwork suggests the crank is
a
>? ? 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A? That would be a custom crank stroke so
I
>? ? suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
crank
>? ? which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
>? stroke
>? ? would be over 397 cubic inches).A? Stroker math is simple and
>? suggests
>? ? that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
1.075
>? ? inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
>? Also,
>? ? I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
>? ? Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
>? over
>? ? and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
is
>? ? highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
>? ? Dan Jones
>? ? On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
>? <[1][1][75]cengles at cox.net>
>? ? wrote:
>? ? ? Dear Mike,
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? I think the recipient has aged a bit better
>? ? ? than the Pantera.
>? ? ? IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
longer
>? ? ? pink, it
>? ? ? was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A? More astounding is that it was
in
>? ? ? Oklahoma
>? ? ? and for sale several years ago.A? I cannot recall the price.
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
>? ? ? Pantera with a
>? ? ? clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
>? ? ? wires,
>? ? ? hoses, remote filters, etc.A? It looked like one should back
away
>? ? ? slowly and
>? ? ? carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
residua
>? ? ? of its previous
>? ? ? condition around the edges of some of the photos.A? I am
interested
>? ? ? in the
>? ? ? BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
>? ? ? story.
>? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? Warmest regards, Chuck
>? ? ? Engles
>? ? ? -----Original Message-----
>? ? ? From: DeTomaso
>? [mailto:[2][2][76]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
>? ? ? On Behalf
>? ? ? Of Mike & Elizabeth
>? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
>? ? ? To: [3][3][77]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? ? Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>? ? ? The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
>? ? ? sale in
>? ? ? BaT.A? Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A? I'm
>? sure
>? ? ? it's aged
>? ? ? better then it's recipient.
>? ? ?
[4][4][78]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? ? ? Mike Thomas
>? ? ? _______________________________________________
>? ? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>? ? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>? ? ? DeTomaso mailing list
>? ? ? [5][5][79]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? ?
[6][6][80]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? ? ? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>? ? ? etc.) use the links above.
>? ? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
>? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of
>? ? ? the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
>? ? ? archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>? References
>? ? 1. mailto:[7][81]cengles at cox.net
>? ? 2. mailto:[8][82]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 3. mailto:[9][83]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 4.
[10][84]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? ? 5. mailto:[11][85]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? ? 6.
[12][86]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? _______________________________________________
>? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>? DeTomaso mailing list
>? [13][87]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? [14][88]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>? use the links above.
>? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
>? message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
>? or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
>? 1. mailto:[89]cengles at cox.net
>? 2. mailto:[90]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? 3. mailto:[91]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 4. [92]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? 5. mailto:[93]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 6. [94]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? 7. mailto:[95]cengles at cox.net
>? 8. mailto:[96]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
>? 9. mailto:[97]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 10. [98]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
>? 11. mailto:[99]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 12. [100]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>? 13. mailto:[101]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>? 14. [102]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [103]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [104]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of
a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on
the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved that
one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <[105]lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: [106]jderyke at aol.com <[107]jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: [108]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <[109]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
[110]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[111]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick as
two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040
would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really
looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1][112]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over
some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use
from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me
about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and
high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had
bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2][113]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3][114]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A
Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's more of
a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with
Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the
inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A
Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over
10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that
stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of
those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for
valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can
be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the crank
is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank stroke
so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at
0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4][115]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit
better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a tired
red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,
Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2][5][116]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6][117]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is
for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A
I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7][118]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-8
2/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
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> 2. mailto:[8][11][122]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9][12][123]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[10][13][124]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82
/
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> 3. mailto:[20][131]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[21][132]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[22][133]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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[23][134]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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> 10.
[27][138]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28][139]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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3. mailto:[147]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:[148]cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:[149]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:[150]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. [151]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
8. mailto:[152]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. [153]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:[154]cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:[155]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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13. [157]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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15. [159]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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19. mailto:[163]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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21. [165]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:14:31 -0700
From: Larry Stock <[178]larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: <[179]jderyke at aol.com>, "[180]lplugw at hotmail.com"
<[181]lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "[182]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[183]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID:
<[184]A1E7D2F5-FD25-4162-90B5-DB578056BCEC at panteraparts.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of
while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art
casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are
heavier, as they couldn?t cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were
bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were
usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not
usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings never
seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all 4
cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack
enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
<[185]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[186]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not
have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls
below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that
sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that
was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the
size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic
test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on
100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire
on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the
owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved
that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <[187]lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: [188]jderyke at aol.com <[189]jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: [190]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
<[191]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
[192]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[193]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas
certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick
as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040
would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really
looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1][194]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after
so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C
block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored
0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use
from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me
about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of
back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings
were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal
and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had
bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2][195]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3][196]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a
clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A
Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's
more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with
Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some
custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the
inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the
odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A
Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over
10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers
into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of
498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software
is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a
good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that
stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of
those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential
issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for
valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring
can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is
no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the
crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank
stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series
cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement
(3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple
and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height
of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to
last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at
0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic
testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4][197]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit
better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was
no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it
was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the
price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a
tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should
back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still
see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious
back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards,
Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
>
[mailto:[2][2][5][198]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6][199]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year
is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV
flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7][200]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-8
2/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:[7][10][203]cengles at cox.net
> 2.
mailto:[8][11][204]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9][12][205]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[10][13][206]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82
/
> 5. mailto:[11][14][207]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6.
[12][15][208]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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> 2. mailto:[19][212]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[20][213]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[21][214]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[22][215]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6.
[23][216]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:[24][217]cengles at cox.net
> 8. mailto:[25][218]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:[26][219]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10.
[27][220]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28][221]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12.
[29][222]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 13. mailto:[30][223]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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> _______________________________________________
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References
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2. mailto:[228]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
3. mailto:[229]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:[230]cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:[231]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:[232]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7.
[233]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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9. [235]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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13.
[239]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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15. [241]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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19. mailto:[245]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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21.
[247]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
22. mailto:[248]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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[253]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 20:22:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: [262]jderyke at aol.com
To: "[263]larrys at panteraparts.com" <[264]larrys at panteraparts.com>,
"[265]lplugw at hotmail.com" <[266]lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: "[267]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[268]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Message-ID: <[269]545099914.1375141.1655929345757 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
That first mentioned was indeed your old SS block. I still have it and
use it when I need to check something inside a block that would ruin it
if I cut a window in the cast iron. Never throw ANYTHING away from a
Pantera!
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock <[270]larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: [271]jderyke at aol.com; [272]lplugw at hotmail.com
<[273]lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: [274]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[275]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of
while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art
casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are
heavier, as they couldn?t cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were
bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were
usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not
usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings never
seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all 4
cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack
enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso"
<[276]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[277]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
? ? ? Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
? ? ? cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not
have
? ? ? that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls
below
? ? ? 0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that
sliced
? ? ? itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
? ? ? 0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that
was
? ? ? virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
? ? ? didn't.
? ? ? I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the
size of a
? ? ? silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic
test
? ? ? 030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on
100-octane
? ? ? gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire
on the
? ? ? starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
? ? ? wasn't even my car!)? It was running fine but after my run the
owner
? ? ? noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe.? The owner sleeved
that one
? ? ? thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
? ? ? thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
? ? ? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? From: Larry Weston <[278]lplugw at hotmail.com>
? ? ? To: [279]jderyke at aol.com <[280]jderyke at aol.com>
? ? ? Cc: [281]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
<[282]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
? ? ? [283]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[284]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
? ? ? Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
? ? ? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas
certainly
? ? ? more important in one axis than the other.
? ? ? Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick
as two
? ? ? sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040
would
? ? ? render an engine block useless.
? ? ? Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really
looks
? ? ? like?
? ? ? Sent from my iPhone
? ? ? > On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
? ? ? <[1][285]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
? ? ? >
? ? ? >? Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after
so
? ? ? many
? ? ? >? years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C
block
? ? ? before
? ? ? >? an overhaul.? The rest of you guys, listen up-
? ? ? >? One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored
0.040"-over some
? ? ? >? years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use
from
? ? ? >? day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me
about
? ? ? it
? ? ? >? at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of
back-and-forth
? ? ? >? followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
? ? ? non-sonic-tested
? ? ? >? block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings
were
? ? ? >? skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal
and high
? ? ? >? oil use.? So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had
bought
? ? ? >? the early Pantera new in '71....
? ? ? >? Cheers- J DeRyke
? ? ? >? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? >? From: Daniel C Jones <[2][286]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
? ? ? >? Cc: detomaso <[3][287]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
? ? ? >? Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
? ? ? >? Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? >> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a
clearly
? ? ? >? ? amateurish installation in the engine bay
? ? ? >? ? I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A?
Below
? ? ? is
? ? ? >? ? what I posted on BaT:
? ? ? >? ? Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A? Rather, it's
more of a
? ? ? >? ? reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with
Cleveland
? ? ? >? ? style canted valve heads.A? This engine is the reverse with
? ? ? Windsor
? ? ? >? ? inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A? Requires some
custom
? ? ? parts
? ? ? >? ? like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the
inline
? ? ? >? ? valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the
odd
? ? ? >? ? intake/head/block combination.A? Notice the hack job on the
? ? ? Windsor
? ? ? >? ? intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A?
Also,
? ? ? >? @BaT
? ? ? >? ? the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over
10000
? ? ? RPM
? ? ? >? ? on a dynamometer.A? Instead, someone plugged some numbers
into a
? ? ? >? ? simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of
498 HP
? ? ? and
? ? ? >? ? 495 ft-lbs.A? Remember the first rule of simulation software
is
? ? ? >? GIGO.A
? ? ? >? ? The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a
good
? ? ? thing
? ? ? >? as
? ? ? >? ? the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that
stock
? ? ? 5
? ? ? >? ? quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of
those
? ? ? >? ? questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
? ? ? company)
? ? ? >? ? rods out the side of the block.A? There's also a potential
issue
? ? ? with
? ? ? >? ? the top ring placement.A? Cleveland blocks have notches for
valve
? ? ? >? ? clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring
can be
? ? ? >? ? placed.A? Too high will put rings into the notches which is
no
? ? ? >? bueno.A
? ? ? >? ? This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
? ? ? >? reasonable
? ? ? >? ? ring pack.A? The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
? ? ? height
? ? ? >? of
? ? ? >? ? around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A? The paperwork suggests the
crank is
? ? ? a
? ? ? >? ? 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A? That would be a custom crank
stroke so
? ? ? I
? ? ? >? ? suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series
cast
? ? ? crank
? ? ? >? ? which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement
(3.875"
? ? ? >? stroke
? ? ? >? ? would be over 397 cubic inches).A? Stroker math is simple
and
? ? ? >? suggests
? ? ? >? ? that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height
of
? ? ? 1.075
? ? ? >? ? inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to
last.A
? ? ? >? Also,
? ? ? >? ? I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
? ? ? paperwork.A
? ? ? >? ? Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at
0.030"
? ? ? >? over
? ? ? >? ? and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic
testing
? ? ? is
? ? ? >? ? highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
? ? ? >? ? Dan Jones
? ? ? >? ? On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
? ? ? >? <[1][1][4][288]cengles at cox.net>
? ? ? >? ? wrote:
? ? ? >? ? ? Dear Mike,
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? I think the recipient has aged a bit
better
? ? ? >? ? ? than the Pantera.
? ? ? >? ? ? IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was
no
? ? ? longer
? ? ? >? ? ? pink, it
? ? ? >? ? ? was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A? More astounding is that it
was
? ? ? in
? ? ? >? ? ? Oklahoma
? ? ? >? ? ? and for sale several years ago.A? I cannot recall the
price.
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? The pictures I reviewed showed a
tired red
? ? ? >? ? ? Pantera with a
? ? ? >? ? ? clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
? ? ? lines,
? ? ? >? ? ? wires,
? ? ? >? ? ? hoses, remote filters, etc.A? It looked like one should
back
? ? ? away
? ? ? >? ? ? slowly and
? ? ? >? ? ? carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A In the BaT pictures, I can still
see
? ? ? residua
? ? ? >? ? ? of its previous
? ? ? >? ? ? condition around the edges of some of the photos.A? I am
? ? ? interested
? ? ? >? ? ? in the
? ? ? >? ? ? BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious
back
? ? ? >? ? ? story.
? ? ? >? ? ? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? A? Warmest regards,
Chuck
? ? ? >? ? ? Engles
? ? ? >? ? ? -----Original Message-----
? ? ? >? ? ? From: DeTomaso
? ? ? >?
[mailto:[2][2][5][289]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
? ? ? >? ? ? On Behalf
? ? ? >? ? ? Of Mike & Elizabeth
? ? ? >? ? ? Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
? ? ? >? ? ? To: [3][3][6][290]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? ? Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
? ? ? >? ? ? The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year
is for
? ? ? >? ? ? sale in
? ? ? >? ? ? BaT.A? Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV
flared.A? I'm
? ? ? >? sure
? ? ? >? ? ? it's aged
? ? ? >? ? ? better then it's recipient.
? ? ? >
? ? ?
[4][4][7][291]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-8
2/
? ? ? >? ? ? Mike Thomas
? ? ? >? ? ? _______________________________________________
? ? ? >? ? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? >? ? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? >? ? ? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? >? ? ? [5][5][8][292]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >
? ? ?
[6][6][9][293]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? ? ? To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
? ? ? >? ? ? etc.) use the links above.
? ? ? >? ? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
? ? ? forward
? ? ? >? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future
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? ? ? of
? ? ? >? ? ? the list. They also grant the list owner permission to
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? ? ? an
? ? ? >? ? ? archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? ? >? References
? ? ? >? ? 1. mailto:[7][10][294]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? ? 2.
mailto:[8][11][295]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 3. mailto:[9][12][296]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 4.
? ? ?
[10][13][297]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82
/
? ? ? >? ? 5. mailto:[11][14][298]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? ? 6.
? ? ?
[12][15][299]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? _______________________________________________
? ? ? >? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? >? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? >? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? >? [13][16][300]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >?
[14][17][301]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
? ? ? etc.)
? ? ? >? use the links above.
? ? ? >? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
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? ? ? any
? ? ? >? message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
? ? ? >? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
? ? ? archive
? ? ? >? or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? ? >
? ? ? > References
? ? ? >
? ? ? >? 1. mailto:[18][302]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? 2. mailto:[19][303]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 3. mailto:[20][304]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 4.
[21][305]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? 5. mailto:[22][306]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 6.
[23][307]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? 7. mailto:[24][308]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? >? 8. mailto:[25][309]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 9. mailto:[26][310]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 10.
[27][311]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? >? 11. mailto:[28][312]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 12.
[29][313]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >? 13. mailto:[30][314]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >? 14.
[31][315]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? > _______________________________________________
? ? ? >
? ? ? >
? ? ? > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? ? > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? ? > DeTomaso mailing list
? ? ? > [32][316]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? >
[33][317]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? >
? ? ? > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
? ? ? use the links above.
? ? ? >
? ? ? > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
? ? ? any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of the
? ? ? list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
? ? ? or approve the archiving of list messages.
? ? References
? ? ? 1. mailto:[318]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 2. mailto:[319]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
? ? ? 3. mailto:[320]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 4. mailto:[321]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 5. mailto:[322]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 6. mailto:[323]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 7.
[324]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 8. mailto:[325]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 9. [326]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 10. mailto:[327]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 11. mailto:[328]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 12. mailto:[329]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 13.
[330]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 14. mailto:[331]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 15. [332]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 16. mailto:[333]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 17. [334]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 18. mailto:[335]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 19. mailto:[336]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 20. mailto:[337]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 21.
[338]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 22. mailto:[339]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 23. [340]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 24. mailto:[341]cengles at cox.net
? ? ? 25. mailto:[342]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 26. mailto:[343]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 27.
[344]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
? ? ? 28. mailto:[345]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 29. [346]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 30. mailto:[347]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 31. [348]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? ? 32. mailto:[349]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? ? 33. [350]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? _______________________________________________
? ? Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
? ? Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
? ? DeTomaso mailing list
? ? [351]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
? ? [352]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
? ? To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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? ? Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
That first mentioned was indeed your old SS block. I still have it
and
use it when I need to check something inside a block that would ruin
it
if I cut a window in the cast iron. Never throw ANYTHING away from a
Pantera!
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Stock <[353]larrys at panteraparts.com>
To: [354]jderyke at aol.com; [355]lplugw at hotmail.com
<[356]lplugw at hotmail.com>
Cc: [357]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[358]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
Jack, That sounds like my block that the exhaust valve fell out of
while doing 167 MPH that we coasted through the finish line on.
It's called CORE SHIFT with the Light Cleveland state of the art
casting methods at the time, which is why the Australian Blacks are
heavier, as they couldnat cast them that thin. All 4 cylinders were
bored simultaneously and if they didn't hit it dead center, they were
usually thinner either to the front or back of the engine block, not
usually inside to outside. I had one that you could see the rings
never
seated in an oval shape because the cylinder wall was flexing on all
4
cylinders until the front cylinder wall work-hardened enough to crack
enough to let the coolant in on the intake cycle. The End
Larry Stock
i>>?On 6/22/22, 12:06 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Jack DeRyke via
DeTomaso" <[1][359]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf
of
[2][360]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did
not
have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls
below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that
sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area
was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside
that
was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly,
it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the
size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic
test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on
100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a
backfire
on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and
it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the
owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved
that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression
using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <[3][361]lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: [4][362]jderyke at aol.com <[5][363]jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: [6][364]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
<[7][365]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
[8][366]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<[9][367]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas
certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick
as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to
.040
would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area
really
looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1][10][368]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ,
after
so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C
block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored
0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil
use
from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called
me
about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of
back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings
were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal
and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he
had
bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2][11][369]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3][12][370]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a
clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A
Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's
more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with
Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse
with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some
custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the
inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with
the
odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on
the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A
Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn
over
10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers
into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of
498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation
software
is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a
good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked
that
stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more
of
those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable
SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential
issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches
for
valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring
can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which
is
no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get
a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a
pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the
crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank
stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series
cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement
(3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple
and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin
height
of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to
last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test
at
0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic
testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4][13][371]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a
bit
better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was
no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that
it
was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the
price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a
tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay:
nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should
back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still
see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a
salacious
back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest
regards,
Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
>
[mailto:[2][2][5][14][372]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6][15][373]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the
Year
is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV
flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7][16][374]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pante
ra-82
/
> Mike Thomas
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:08:35 -0400
From: Will Kooiman <[513]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
To: <[514]dnunn at telus.net>, <[515]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Source for electric speedo sender for the ZF?
Message-ID: <[516]59712994-BB6E-432C-B63F-47B1C87941A4 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thanks Dave,
I just ordered a box from Speed Hut. It does what you describe.
I never woulda thunk such a thing existed.
It states that it has multiple inputs. It has GPS input, but you can
also use VSS, and it will use both or either. Details on their
website.
I actually still have a VSS from Milwaukee Speedometer Service. Once
it arrives, I'll post how well it works. I'll try it with VSS, GPS,
and both to see if there is a difference either way.
Btw, it comes with a 3' cable. I chose the VW cable, since it said the
speedo side was M18 x 1.5.
Will.
?On 6/15/22, 12:48 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of David Nunn"
<[517]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[518]dnunn at telus.net> wrote:
I had my OEM Veglia speedo converted to electric operation by
North
Hollywood Speedometer. All they do is take the electric drive
motor out
of an electric speedo and attach it to the main drive shaft of
the OEM
speedo. It all fits within the OEM speedo case. The only clue
that it's
now an electric speedo is the pigtail hanging out of it! The
electric
motor now turns the speedo instead of a cable. The odometer and
trip
odometer are untouched and work as before. I used the motor from
an Si
speedo but any electric speedo motor will work. I suppose you
could
even use an Autometer stepper-motor speedo's electric motor. I
use an
Autometer GPS sending unit too. It works perfectly with my Si
speedo
motor. The beauty of a GPS sending unit is, it's very easy to
calibrate
and is accurate to 1 metre.
Since I no longer needed a speedo cable, I purchased a VSS from
Milwaukee Speedometer Service to replace the angle drive on my
ZF. The
VSS supplies the signals for my EZ Electric power steering and
fuel
injection ECU.
Dave
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------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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------------------------------
End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 216, Issue 20
*****************************************
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128. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
129. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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182. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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214. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
215. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
216. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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229. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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234. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
235. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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239. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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247. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
248. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
249. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
250. mailto:cengles at cox.net
251. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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253. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
254. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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260. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
261. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
262. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
263. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
264. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
265. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
266. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
267. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
268. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
269. mailto:545099914.1375141.1655929345757 at mail.yahoo.com
270. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
271. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
272. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
273. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
274. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
275. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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279. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
280. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
281. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
282. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
283. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
284. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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293. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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297. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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301. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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320. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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325. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
326. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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330. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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339. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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345. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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351. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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354. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
355. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
356. mailto:lplugw at hotmail.com
357. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
358. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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362. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
363. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
364. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
365. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
366. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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368. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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380. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
381. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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422. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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440. mailto:jderyke at aol.com
441. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
442. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
443. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
444. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
445. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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457. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
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515. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
516. mailto:59712994-BB6E-432C-B63F-47B1C87941A4 at gmail.com
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