[DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Wed Jun 22 15:06:36 EDT 2022
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below 0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was 0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test 030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the owner noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved that one thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? It’s certainly more important in one axis than the other.
It’s hard to picture how removing another .005” (about as thick as two sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A Below is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some custom parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000 RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock 5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential issue with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the crank is a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank stroke so I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of 1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it was in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should back away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still see residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
> [4][4]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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> References
> 1. mailto:[7]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [10]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
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> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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> [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
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> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
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> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Depends on how you drive the engine. Chev guys get nervous when
cylinder walls drop below 0.125". Many street Clevelands did not have
that thick walls when new. I personally get uneasy with walls below
0.090"- and not on the thrust side. I have a demo-block that sliced
itself apart at a Silver State event. The thinnest wall area was
0.078", On that block, there was a mold seam on the backside that was
virtually a dotted line that said, "crack here". Surprisingly, it
didn't.
I have a souvenir piece of cylinder wall on my desk about the size of a
silver dollar that's 0.068" thick, from an 'as-usual' no-sonic test
030-over block. That engine, running 11"1 compression on 100-octane
gas, blew the wall piece into the water jacket during a backfire on the
starting line at an autocross (inadequate warm-up. My bad- and it
wasn't even my car!) It was running fine but after my run the owner
noticed water pouring out of one tail pipe. The owner sleeved that one
thin cylinder and its still running (with lower compression using
thicker head gaskets) as far as I know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Weston <lplugw at hotmail.com>
To: jderyke at aol.com <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>;
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 22, 2022 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
What is a minimum acceptable cylinder wall thickness? Itas certainly
more important in one axis than the other.
Itas hard to picture how removing another .005a (about as thick as two
sheets of paper) from the cylinder wall to get from .030 to .040 would
render an engine block useless.
Has anyone ever sliced open a block to see what that area really looks
like?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 21, 2022, at 4:57 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so
many
> years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block
before
> an overhaul. The rest of you guys, listen up-
> One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
> years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
> day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about
it
> at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
> followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the
non-sonic-tested
> block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
> skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
> oil use. So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
> the early Pantera new in '71....
> Cheers- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones <[2]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso <[3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
>> The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
> amateurish installation in the engine bay
> I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A Below
is
> what I posted on BaT:
> Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A Rather, it's more of a
> reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
> style canted valve heads.A This engine is the reverse with
Windsor
> inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A Requires some custom
parts
> like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
> valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
> intake/head/block combination.A Notice the hack job on the
Windsor
> intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A Also,
> @BaT
> the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000
RPM
> on a dynamometer.A Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
> simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP
and
> 495 ft-lbs.A Remember the first rule of simulation software is
> GIGO.A
> The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good
thing
> as
> the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock
5
> quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
> questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT
company)
> rods out the side of the block.A There's also a potential issue
with
> the top ring placement.A Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
> clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
> placed.A Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
> bueno.A
> This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
> reasonable
> ring pack.A The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin
height
> of
> around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A The paperwork suggests the crank is
a
> 3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A That would be a custom crank stroke so
I
> suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast
crank
> which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
> stroke
> would be over 397 cubic inches).A Stroker math is simple and
> suggests
> that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of
1.075
> inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
> Also,
> I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild
paperwork.A
> Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
> over
> and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing
is
> highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
> Dan Jones
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
> <[1][1][4]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> A A A A A A A I think the recipient has aged a bit better
> than the Pantera.
> IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no
longer
> pink, it
> was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A More astounding is that it was
in
> Oklahoma
> and for sale several years ago.A I cannot recall the price.
> A A A A A A A The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
> Pantera with a
> clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous
lines,
> wires,
> hoses, remote filters, etc.A It looked like one should back
away
> slowly and
> carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
> A A A A A A A A In the BaT pictures, I can still see
residua
> of its previous
> condition around the edges of some of the photos.A I am
interested
> in the
> BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
> story.
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, Chuck
> Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso
> [mailto:[2][2][5]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
> On Behalf
> Of Mike & Elizabeth
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
> To: [3][3][6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
> The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
> sale in
> BaT.A Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A I'm
> sure
> it's aged
> better then it's recipient.
>
[4][4][7]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> Mike Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [5][5][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
[6][6][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:[7][10]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[8][11]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[9][12]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4.
[10][13]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[11][14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6.
[12][15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [13][16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [14][17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[18]cengles at cox.net
> 2. mailto:[19]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:[20]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [21]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 5. mailto:[22]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:[24]cengles at cox.net
> 8. mailto:[25]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. [27]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
> 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 14. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [32]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:cengles at cox.net
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. mailto:cengles at cox.net
11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
20. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
21. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
22. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
24. mailto:cengles at cox.net
25. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
26. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
27. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
28. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
30. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
32. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
33. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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