[DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT

Tue Jun 21 16:57:27 EDT 2022

Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so many years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block before an overhaul.  The rest of you guys, listen up-
One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about it at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the non-sonic-tested block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high oil use.  So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought the early Pantera new in '71....Cheers- J DeRyke

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT

  > The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
  amateurish installation in the engine bay
  I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A  Below is
  what I posted on BaT:
  Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A  Rather, it's more of a
  reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
  style canted valve heads.A  This engine is the reverse with Windsor
  inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A  Requires some custom parts
  like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
  valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
  intake/head/block combination.A  Notice the hack job on the Windsor
  intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A  Also, @BaT
  the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000 RPM
  on a dynamometer.A  Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
  simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP and
  495 ft-lbs.A  Remember the first rule of simulation software is GIGO.A
  The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good thing as
  the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock 5
  quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
  questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT company)
  rods out the side of the block.A  There's also a potential issue with
  the top ring placement.A  Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
  clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
  placed.A  Too high will put rings into the notches which is no bueno.A
  This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a reasonable
  ring pack.A  The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin height of
  around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A  The paperwork suggests the crank is a
  3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A  That would be a custom crank stroke so I
  suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast crank
  which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875" stroke
  would be over 397 cubic inches).A  Stroker math is simple and suggests
  that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of 1.075
  inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A  Also,
  I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild paperwork.A
  Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030" over
  and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing is
  highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
  Dan Jones

  On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles <[1]cengles at cox.net>
  wrote:

    Dear Mike,
    A  A  A  A  A  A  A  I think the recipient has aged a bit better
    than the Pantera.
    IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no longer
    pink, it
    was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A  More astounding is that it was in
    Oklahoma
    and for sale several years ago.A  I cannot recall the price.
    A  A  A  A  A  A  A  The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
    Pantera with a
    clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous lines,
    wires,
    hoses, remote filters, etc.A  It looked like one should back away
    slowly and
    carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
    A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A In the BaT pictures, I can still see residua
    of its previous
    condition around the edges of some of the photos.A  I am interested
    in the
    BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
    story.
    A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  Warmest regards, Chuck
    Engles
    -----Original Message-----
    From: DeTomaso [mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
    On Behalf
    Of Mike & Elizabeth
    Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
    To: [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
    Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
    The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
    sale in
    BaT.A  Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A  I'm sure
    it's aged
    better then it's recipient.
    [4]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
    Mike Thomas
    _______________________________________________
    Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
    Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
    DeTomaso mailing list
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    [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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    etc.) use the links above.
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    any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
    the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
    archive or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

  1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  4. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
  5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________

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-------------- next part --------------
   Hi, Dan. Nice to see you at the recent Fun Rally in AZ, after so many
   years. I can verify the value of sonic-testing EVERY 351-C block before
   an overhaul.  The rest of you guys, listen up-
   One of the Nor-Cal guys had his OEM Cleveland bored 0.040"-over some
   years ago. The fully rebuilt engine had extremely high oil use from
   day-1 and after waiting for the engine to break-in, called me about it
   at 1200 miles with no improvement. After a bit of back-and-forth
   followed by engine removal and tear-down, he found the non-sonic-tested
   block had such thin, flexible cylinder walls, the new rings were
   skipping over bulges in the walls- hence the poor ring seal and high
   oil use.  So his OEM block was scrapped. Too bad since he had bought
   the early Pantera new in '71....
   Cheers- J DeRyke
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
   Cc: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2022 9:51 am
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
     > The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red Pantera with a clearly
     amateurish installation in the engine bay
     I spotted several potential issues with the engine build.A  Below is
     what I posted on BaT:
     Note the engine is no longer a Cleveland.A  Rather, it's more of a
     reverse Clevor. Clevor is slang for a Windsor block with Cleveland
     style canted valve heads.A  This engine is the reverse with Windsor
     inline valve heads on a Cleveland block.A  Requires some custom parts
     like headers and pistons with valve notches that match the inline
     valves, along with gaskets and fasteners that work with the odd
     intake/head/block combination.A  Notice the hack job on the Windsor
     intake end seal to clear the oil pressure sender fitting.A  Also,
   @BaT
     the engine did not make 498 HP and 495 ft-lbs and turn over 10000 RPM
     on a dynamometer.A  Instead, someone plugged some numbers into a
     simulation program (Dyno2000) which output an estimate of 498 HP and
     495 ft-lbs.A  Remember the first rule of simulation software is
   GIGO.A
     The fact that it wasn't spun to 10K+ RPM on the dyno is a good thing
   as
     the unnecessary high volume oil pump would have sucked that stock 5
     quart pan dry, spun a rod bearing and chucked one or more of those
     questionable CAT (not to be confused with the reputable SCAT company)
     rods out the side of the block.A  There's also a potential issue with
     the top ring placement.A  Cleveland blocks have notches for valve
     clearance/unshrouding which limits where the top ring ring can be
     placed.A  Too high will put rings into the notches which is no
   bueno.A
     This also limits where the piston pin can be placed to get a
   reasonable
     ring pack.A  The typical 4" stroke Cleveland will have a pin height
   of
     around 1.2" and use 6" rods.A  The paperwork suggests the crank is a
     3.875" stroke SCAT unit.A  That would be a custom crank stroke so I
     suspect it's actually the off-the-shelf 3.85" 9000 series cast crank
     which would match the stated 395 cubic inch displacement (3.875"
   stroke
     would be over 397 cubic inches).A  Stroker math is simple and
   suggests
     that a 6.2" long rod and 3.85" stroke will have a pin height of 1.075
     inches which is not recommended if you want the engine to last.A
   Also,
     I see no mention of sonic testing in the engine rebuild paperwork.A
     Having had more than one Cleveland block fail sonic test at 0.030"
   over
     and another that needed a sleeve at standard bore, sonic testing is
     highly recommended before boring 0.040" over.
     Dan Jones
     On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:04 AM Charles Engles
   <[1][1]cengles at cox.net>
     wrote:
       Dear Mike,
       A  A  A  A  A  A  A  I think the recipient has aged a bit better
       than the Pantera.
       IIRC, I saw pictures of it and a story that while it was no longer
       pink, it
       was the Playboy Pink Pantera.A  More astounding is that it was in
       Oklahoma
       and for sale several years ago.A  I cannot recall the price.
       A  A  A  A  A  A  A  The pictures I reviewed showed a tired red
       Pantera with a
       clearly amateurish installation in the engine bay: nitrous lines,
       wires,
       hoses, remote filters, etc.A  It looked like one should back away
       slowly and
       carefully, while shielding their eyes.A
       A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A In the BaT pictures, I can still see residua
       of its previous
       condition around the edges of some of the photos.A  I am interested
       in the
       BaT bidding and comments on this Pantera with a salacious back
       story.
       A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  Warmest regards, Chuck
       Engles
       -----Original Message-----
       From: DeTomaso
   [mailto:[2][2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
       On Behalf
       Of Mike & Elizabeth
       Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:52 AM
       To: [3][3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
       Subject: [DeTomaso] Playboy Pantera for Auction on BaT
       The pink Pantera awarded to the 1972 Playmate of the Year is for
       sale in
       BaT.A  Now repainted in red over black and Grp IV flared.A  I'm
   sure
       it's aged
       better then it's recipient.
       [4][4]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
       Mike Thomas
       _______________________________________________
       Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
       Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
       DeTomaso mailing list
       [5][5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
       [6][6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
       To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
       etc.) use the links above.
       Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
       any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
       the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
       archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
     1. mailto:[7]cengles at cox.net
     2. mailto:[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
     3. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     4. [10]https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
     5. mailto:[11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     6. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [13]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
   2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
   5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   7. mailto:cengles at cox.net
   8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  10. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-detomaso-pantera-82/
  11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso