[DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
Larry Stock
larrys at panteraparts.com
Mon Jul 18 11:38:47 EDT 2022
Good Point Steve, to add a little reality dynamic to the static testing.
The "10 quart" Avaid Oil Pan holds 8 quarts brim full, plus a 9th filter quart. To the Full line.
7 quarts to the ADD line, 8 quarts mid Full, 9 quarts to the full line, then add one quart(?) to go racing to plaster against the sides of the block.
1-G side load means all the oil is plastered to the side of the engine block, which is the reason for the next step of dry sump oiling systems.
An engine out of oil always runs best right before they blow.
Larry Stock
On 7/18/22, 6:41 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of STEVEN L HAWKINS" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of shawkins777 at comcast.net> wrote:
FWIW, I've seen this same episode also and would add only it's important to remember the test were run on an engine stand, not in a car making high g turns that could potentially cause oil pump starvation.
Steve
> On 07/17/2022 8:39 PM Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, I've been using an original "10-qt" Aviaid oil pan and stock dipstick (verified for proper length) since 1985. I've always run 6-1/2 to 7 qts of 10W30 along with a remote oil filter and a remote air-to-water Laminova oil cooler, all plumbed together with dash-8 Aeroquip lines. Never checked to see how much oil all this holds.
>
> Interestingly, in a past episode of Engine Masters on TV, they determined (BBC on Westech's dynomometer in So-Cal) that running a full 8 qts of oil (recommended in their Moroso racing pan) above 5500 rpms, oil foaming radically reduce oil pressure (from 60 psi to 25 psi),
>
> Draining 1 qt INCREASED oil pressure by 5 psi above 5500, and removing a second (to 6 total quarts, including what was in the filter) oil pressure again went up above 5500. Horsepower also increased by as much as 40 horses!. This makes me feel vindicated about always running only 6-7 qts in our engine's '10-qt' pan.
>
> My take-away from all this is, dyno-tuning your engine combo tells much more than just horsepower bragging rights. And to be 'safe' if your hot-rod 'Silver State' Cleveland has never been on a dyno and you have a10-qt oil pan, stay away from extended use of 6000 rpms until you know oil foaming isn't a problem at an 8+ qt fill!.
> YMMV- J DeRyke
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> To: 'Christopher Kimball' <chrisvkimball at msn.com>; 'Asa Jay Laughton' <asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2022 5:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
>
> Chris, heed Mike D's advice and measure from the tip of the dip to the cup at the upper end of the stick. It should be 38". If that is the case, then the stock markings on the stick are your indication of oil level.
>
> Mike T.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf Of Christopher Kimball
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 3:54 PM
> To: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
>
> Thank you for your input.
>
> I do have a "full" mark on the dipstick that was made years ago after I installed the new 10 quart Armando pan.
>
> I think I will probably add a couple more quarts, totaling eight in all, because that should bring the level up to the line that I scribed onto the dipstick at that time. 8 quarts may be a little low if it is truly a 10 court pan, however, after seeing some of the comments made earlier, 8 to 9 quarts seems sufficient for a pan of that type.
>
> Shortening the tube would only make things worse, I would actually have to shorten the dipstick in order to have the original dipstick markings show correctly, which I am a reticent to do. I will probably just leave things as is, and any new owner will have to simply know that the new mark on the dipstick is the full line.
>
> Thanks again for all your help. Now that I have my car back you can look forward with eager anticipation all the silly questions I will be putting on the forum! 😄
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Date: 7/17/22 1:39 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
>
> I can attest to some third-party dipstick tubes for the Pantera being too long. We had a Pantera owner here in Spokane (transplant from
> California) who was constantly blowing oil out everywhere. He had a 10-qt pan and it took 10+ quarts to read full on his dipstick. But all the symptoms were that it was overfilled.
>
> Once I found out it had an aftermarket dipstick tube on it, we drained the pan and put the recommended number of quarts in, based on feedback here and which pan was installed. Once that was done, we cut the end of the dipstick tube so the full mark on the dispstick read full. Another method is to fill the proper amount and then scribe a new mark on the dipstick. I preferred cutting the tube so we were using the stock marks, making the next owner comfortable with the readings and not wondering what the extra marks would have been.
>
> Mike Drew is correct.
>
> In Chris' case, if the dipstick were properly "re-marked" when the new larger pan was put in years ago, then that is the mark they should probably use. At least to get started.
>
> Maybe worth a dip in the archives to figure out which pan he originally purchased too. ;)
>
> Asa Jay
>
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired Spokane County ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO
> ******************************
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>
> On 7/17/2022 12:37, MICHAEL DREW via DeTomaso wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > You are exactly right. The ONLY thing that dictates how much oil goes into the pan is the distance between the top of the oil and the bottom of the rotating assembly. That distance is fixed by the dipstick. You could hang a pan the size of Lake Michigan under the engine and the oil quantity would still be determined by the stock dipstick.
> >
> > (This presumes that the dipstick is actually correct which is by no
> > means a given. The TSB shows what the proper length should be—38
> > inches from cup to tip. On Lori’s 1971 the dipstick was too short
> > which meant there was too much oil in the engine. Rather than
> > lengthening the dipstick, instead we cut the appropriate amount from
> > the back of the tube which had the same effect.)
> >
> > The aftermarket “10-quart” pans are not quite that generous. Most people find they require 8.5-9 quarts including a bone dry filter. If you pre-fill the filter it will easily hold a half quart which would then reduce the amount you need to pour into the engine…..
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jul 17, 2022, at 15:17, Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Please see Chris' note below. I have a 10 qt pan in my car as well and
> >> was never under the impression that you needed to use a different mark
> >> on the dipstick. It should read the same for a stock pan as for one of
> >> the baffled 10-qt pans. You just have to put more oil in. I also seem
> >> to remember that it actually takes about 8.5 qts rather than the `10',
> >> being sure to run it to fill the oil filter before final measure.
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refresh my memory.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Mike Thomas
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Christopher Kimball <ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 10:36 AM
> >> To: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Need a new name for Pandora
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll give it a couple of months--there are still things which need to
> >> be addressed, such as the oil pan. It appears there is confusion as to
> >> what pan I have on the car. back in 07 or so I bought what I think is
> >> a 10 qt Armondo pan, but I believe Denny only put 6 quarts in the car,
> >> since he must not have known the dipstick's original markings weren't
> >> correct after installing the new pan. I had a mark I made showing the
> >> correct fill line I added, so I have to figure out what the correct
> >> amount of oil should be.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> _____________________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> From: Mike & Elizabeth <[1]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 9:29 AM
> >> To: [2]chrisvkimball at msn.com <[3]chrisvkimball at msn.com>
> >> Subject: Need a new name for Pandora
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris, now that you have your car back it may be a good idea to think
> >> of a new name for her so we can move on from Pandora . . .
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> >> 2. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> >> 3. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
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> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. FWIW, I've been using an original "10-qt" Aviaid oil pan and stock
> dipstick (verified for proper length) since 1985. I've always run
> 6-1/2 to 7 qts of 10W30 along with a remote oil filter and a remote
> air-to-water Laminova oil cooler, all plumbed together with dash-8
> Aeroquip lines. Never checked to see how much oil all this holds.
> Interestingly, in a past episode of Engine Masters on TV, they
> determined (BBC on Westech's dynomometer in So-Cal) that running a full
> 8 qts of oil (recommended in their Moroso racing pan) above 5500 rpms,
> oil foaming radically reduce oil pressure (from 60 psi to 25 psi),
> Draining 1 qt INCREASED oil pressure by 5 psi above 5500, and removing
> a second (to 6 total quarts, including what was in the filter) oil
> pressure again went up above 5500. Horsepower also increased by as much
> as 40 horses!. This makes me feel vindicated about always running only
> 6-7 qts in our engine's '10-qt' pan.
> My take-away from all this is, dyno-tuning your engine combo tells much
> more than just horsepower bragging rights. And to be 'safe' if your
> hot-rod 'Silver State' Cleveland has never been on a dyno and you have
> a10-qt oil pan, stay away from extended use of 6000 rpms until you know
> oil foaming isn't a problem at an 8+ qt fill!.
> YMMV- J DeRyke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike & Elizabeth <mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> To: 'Christopher Kimball' <chrisvkimball at msn.com>; 'Asa Jay Laughton'
> <asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2022 5:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
> Chris, heed Mike D's advice and measure from the tip of the dip to the
> cup at the upper end of the stick. It should be 38". If that is the
> case, then the stock markings on the stick are your indication of oil
> level.
> Mike T.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf
> Of Christopher Kimball
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 3:54 PM
> To: Asa Jay Laughton <[2]asajay at asajay.com>;
> [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
> Thank you for your input.
> I do have a "full" mark on the dipstick that was made years ago after I
> installed the new 10 quart Armando pan.
> I think I will probably add a couple more quarts, totaling eight in
> all, because that should bring the level up to the line that I scribed
> onto the dipstick at that time. 8 quarts may be a little low if it is
> truly a 10 court pan, however, after seeing some of the comments made
> earlier, 8 to 9 quarts seems sufficient for a pan of that type.
> Shortening the tube would only make things worse, I would actually have
> to shorten the dipstick in order to have the original dipstick markings
> show correctly, which I am a reticent to do. I will probably just leave
> things as is, and any new owner will have to simply know that the new
> mark on the dipstick is the full line.
> Thanks again for all your help. Now that I have my car back you can
> look forward with eager anticipation all the silly questions I will be
> putting on the forum! d-
> Sincerely,
> Chris
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S9+, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable
> smartphone
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Asa Jay Laughton via DeTomaso
> <[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Date: 7/17/22 1:39 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: [5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Correct amount of oil for an Armondo 10 qt pan.
> I can attest to some third-party dipstick tubes for the Pantera being
> too long. We had a Pantera owner here in Spokane (transplant from
> California) who was constantly blowing oil out everywhere. He had a
> 10-qt pan and it took 10+ quarts to read full on his dipstick. But
> all the symptoms were that it was overfilled.
> Once I found out it had an aftermarket dipstick tube on it, we drained
> the pan and put the recommended number of quarts in, based on feedback
> here and which pan was installed. Once that was done, we cut the end
> of the dipstick tube so the full mark on the dispstick read full.
> Another method is to fill the proper amount and then scribe a new mark
> on the dipstick. I preferred cutting the tube so we were using the
> stock marks, making the next owner comfortable with the readings and
> not wondering what the extra marks would have been.
> Mike Drew is correct.
> In Chris' case, if the dipstick were properly "re-marked" when the new
> larger pan was put in years ago, then that is the mark they should
> probably use. At least to get started.
> Maybe worth a dip in the archives to figure out which pan he originally
> purchased too. ;)
> Asa Jay
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired Spokane County
> ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO
> ******************************
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> On 7/17/2022 12:37, MICHAEL DREW via DeTomaso wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > You are exactly right. The ONLY thing that dictates how much oil goes
> into the pan is the distance between the top of the oil and the bottom
> of the rotating assembly. That distance is fixed by the dipstick. You
> could hang a pan the size of Lake Michigan under the engine and the oil
> quantity would still be determined by the stock dipstick.
> >
> > (This presumes that the dipstick is actually correct which is by no
> > means a given. The TSB shows what the proper length should bea38
> > inches from cup to tip. On Lorias 1971 the dipstick was too short
> > which meant there was too much oil in the engine. Rather than
> > lengthening the dipstick, instead we cut the appropriate amount from
> > the back of the tube which had the same effect.)
> >
> > The aftermarket a10-quarta pans are not quite that generous. Most
> people find they require 8.5-9 quarts including a bone dry filter. If
> you pre-fill the filter it will easily hold a half quart which would
> then reduce the amount you need to pour into the enginea|..
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jul 17, 2022, at 15:17, Mike & Elizabeth
> <[8]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> i>>? Please see Chris' note below. I have a 10 qt pan in my car as
> well and
> >> was never under the impression that you needed to use a different
> mark
> >> on the dipstick. It should read the same for a stock pan as for
> one of
> >> the baffled 10-qt pans. You just have to put more oil in. I
> also seem
> >> to remember that it actually takes about 8.5 qts rather than the
> `10',
> >> being sure to run it to fill the oil filter before final measure.
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refresh my memory.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Mike Thomas
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Christopher Kimball <[9]ChrisVKimball at msn.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 10:36 AM
> >> To: Mike & Elizabeth <[10]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Need a new name for Pandora
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll give it a couple of months--there are still things which
> need to
> >> be addressed, such as the oil pan. It appears there is confusion
> as to
> >> what pan I have on the car. back in 07 or so I bought what I
> think is
> >> a 10 qt Armondo pan, but I believe Denny only put 6 quarts in the
> car,
> >> since he must not have known the dipstick's original markings
> weren't
> >> correct after installing the new pan. I had a mark I made
> showing the
> >> correct fill line I added, so I have to figure out what the
> correct
> >> amount of oil should be.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> From: Mike & Elizabeth <[1][11]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 9:29 AM
> >> To: [2][12]chrisvkimball at msn.com <[3][13]chrisvkimball at msn.com>
> >> Subject: Need a new name for Pandora
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris, now that you have your car back it may be a good idea to
> think
> >> of a new name for her so we can move on from Pandora . . .
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. mailto:[14]mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> >> 2. mailto:[15]chrisvkimball at msn.com
> >> 3. mailto:[16]chrisvkimball at msn.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> 8. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> 9. mailto:ChrisVKimball at msn.com
> 10. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 13. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 14. mailto:mbefthomas2 at gmail.com
> 15. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 16. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 18. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserver.detomasolist.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetomaso&data=05%7C01%7C%7C5f2a953b684243dfdc6b08da68347d22%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637936871898863228%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=T%2BXGjj0%2BC42l%2FnZ6amtHybya5oBMAwlTSW8Uj42O6Wk%3D&reserved=0
> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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