[DeTomaso] Group 3 Pantera at Auto Cub Speedway
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Sun Apr 3 00:23:17 EDT 2022
Steve,
Why do you want to install a Quaife? I assume you refer to the ZFQ (QBE62G), which as far as I am aware has never been manufactured to allow inversion (from the GT40 orientation with input shaft above the centerline) to the Pantera orientation? Please check with Quaife unless you plan to try and switch to the GT40 orientation and lower the engine for an overall lower CG.
I'm not sure how long you have had your ZFQ, but Quaife just restarted manufacture with a new beefed-up version as there were numerous failures in GT40's in a track environment and they ceased production for a while. IMO the ZFQ is a lesser gearbox to the ZF and no less expensive, it filled a gap for the GT40 kit car guys when ZF's became an 18-month lead time.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 9:02 PM
To: B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Group 3 Pantera at Auto Cub Speedway
Since the two cameras are "synced" by a human, and the video sound is from
the engine-mounted camera, you would probably want to watch the throttle
cable assembly and listen for the revs/shifts just to make sure. And, yes
from that camera I hear a downshift synchro "graunch." Having "ground" my
fair share of gears over 35 years of racing, I am not hearing gears or
synchros "grind" - which is indeed an awful sound that results in bits left
in the box.
In my experience, often when we are too careful and slow in our shifts,
we make the rev-matching even more difficult
(as the period for the shift is too long). That is a criticism I have
received over the years --- I can be too slow and careful with the shifts
and miss the rev-match. With all the data on the race cars, it is easier
to see. He just hopped out of the sequentially shifted prototype into the
Pantera, and if I were to draw a conclusion, that is what happens here. He
is slow and careful, but the revs are not perfectly matched to the shifts
when the "graunching" occurs.
Of course, with sequential shifters and auto blippers now prevalent on most
race cars (including several of our race cars), the art of shifting an old
synchro race box on a road race track is, frankly, being lost. I drive
mostly sequential shifters or dog-tooth boxes (without a clutch), and I
have to search my memory and reflexes to drive the ZF properly. Kind of
sad when you think about it.
As for me giving Tony a KITA-- those days are long gone. He is 37, has
been racing professionally since he was 15, and is now way more skilled
than his old man. But, I did send him the video and told him to listen to
it himself, and also let him know that all of us on the DeTomaso list were
wondering about the shifting. LOL. That saves me from having to actually
say anything.
BTW, he is usually his biggest critic, so he will get it. I will ask for
his comment so I can post it. I just hope he doesn't want to put the
camera back there when I am driving....it may be worse.
NOTE, after the Laguna race in a few weeks, we are going to make an attempt
at installing the Quaiffe. I will keep you posted.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
*The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com<http://www.PatentIt.com> <http://www.patentit.com/>
*Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
*Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 5:31 PM B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I played it several times watching his hand and noise timing ...
>
> I have to agree and have had mine out twice for synchro problems ... and
> second seems to be first to go.
>
> Bud 3400
>
>
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022, 04:48:07 PM CDT, Mike & Elizabeth <
> mbefthomas2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sure sounds like a second-gear downshift graunch to me . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf Of
> Steve Lisa
> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:26 AM
> To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Group 3 Pantera at Auto Cub Speedway
>
> I will have to ask Tony -- he is driving. When I drove it Saturday, I
> didn't notice any gear "grinding" and this was Tony's first lap after his
> out lap -- so he wasn't pushing. I do know we both use the clutch in this
> car and heel/toe for braking downshifts.
>
> There is a mic and camera in the engine compartment, and that is where the
> sound comes from for this video (not the cockpit camera). So we may hear
> things that we don't typically hear while driving.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> *The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
> Direct: 480-442-0297
>
> www.PatentIt.com<http://www.PatentIt.com> <http://www.patentit.com/>
>
> *Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:*
> 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> *Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
>
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603 This email is intended only
> for the recipient above and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. If you received this email in error please destroy it and
> indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 10:57 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it just me, or is it badly grinding gears on every downshift?
> >
> > Steve, are you trying to downshift without the clutch? Or am I just
> > hearing things?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Apr 1, 2022, at 21:39, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > This 'fast lap Friday' in car video of Steve Lisa popped up in my
> > > Facebook feed from SVRA Life, not sure if you can view without an FB
> > > account.
> > >
> > > [1]https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > >
> > > [2]#FastLapFriday by VBOX - Anthony Lisa's 1973 DeTomaso Panterra at
> > > Auto Club Speedway
> > > Fast Lap Friday! Join us for a lap around Auto Club Speedway
> > > compliments of VBOX Motorsport 🤩 Which view is cooler in this
> > > video? #FastLapFriday
> > > www.facebook.com<http://www.facebook.com>
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > Visible links
> > > 1. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > > 2. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > >
> > > Hidden links:
> > > 4. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> > > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > >
> > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> > > etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > >
> > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> > > any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> > approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> > approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
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> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
> the archiving of list messages.
>
-------------- next part --------------
Steve,
Why do you want to install a Quaife? I assume you refer to the ZFQ
(QBE62G), which as far as I am aware has never been manufactured to
allow inversion (from the GT40 orientation with input shaft above the
centerline) to the Pantera orientation? Please check with Quaife unless
you plan to try and switch to the GT40 orientation and lower the engine
for an overall lower CG.
I'm not sure how long you have had your ZFQ, but Quaife just restarted
manufacture with a new beefed-up version as there were numerous
failures in GT40's in a track environment and they ceased production
for a while. IMO the ZFQ is a lesser gearbox to the ZF and no less
expensive, it filled a gap for the GT40 kit car guys when ZF's became
an 18-month lead time.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 9:02 PM
To: B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Group 3 Pantera at Auto Cub Speedway
Since the two cameras are "synced" by a human, and the video sound is
from
the engine-mounted camera, you would probably want to watch the
throttle
cable assembly and listen for the revs/shifts just to make sure. And,
yes
from that camera I hear a downshift synchro "graunch." Having "ground"
my
fair share of gears over 35 years of racing, I am not hearing gears or
synchros "grind" - which is indeed an awful sound that results in bits
left
in the box.
In my experience, often when we are too careful and slow in our shifts,
we make the rev-matching even more difficult
(as the period for the shift is too long). That is a criticism I have
received over the years --- I can be too slow and careful with the
shifts
and miss the rev-match. With all the data on the race cars, it is
easier
to see. He just hopped out of the sequentially shifted prototype into
the
Pantera, and if I were to draw a conclusion, that is what happens
here. He
is slow and careful, but the revs are not perfectly matched to the
shifts
when the "graunching" occurs.
Of course, with sequential shifters and auto blippers now prevalent on
most
race cars (including several of our race cars), the art of shifting an
old
synchro race box on a road race track is, frankly, being lost. I
drive
mostly sequential shifters or dog-tooth boxes (without a clutch), and I
have to search my memory and reflexes to drive the ZF properly. Kind
of
sad when you think about it.
As for me giving Tony a KITA-- those days are long gone. He is 37, has
been racing professionally since he was 15, and is now way more skilled
than his old man. But, I did send him the video and told him to listen
to
it himself, and also let him know that all of us on the DeTomaso list
were
wondering about the shifting. LOL. That saves me from having to
actually
say anything.
BTW, he is usually his biggest critic, so he will get it. I will ask
for
his comment so I can post it. I just hope he doesn't want to put the
camera back there when I am driving....it may be worse.
NOTE, after the Laguna race in a few weeks, we are going to make an
attempt
at installing the Quaiffe. I will keep you posted.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
*The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com <[2]http://www.patentit.com/>
*Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:*
7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
*Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55
E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 5:31 PM B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I played it several times watching his hand and noise timing ...
>
> I have to agree and have had mine out twice for synchro problems ...
and
> second seems to be first to go.
>
> Bud 3400
>
>
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022, 04:48:07 PM CDT, Mike & Elizabeth <
> mbefthomas2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sure sounds like a second-gear downshift graunch to me . . .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf
Of
> Steve Lisa
> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:26 AM
> To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Group 3 Pantera at Auto Cub Speedway
>
> I will have to ask Tony -- he is driving. When I drove it Saturday,
I
> didn't notice any gear "grinding" and this was Tony's first lap after
his
> out lap -- so he wasn't pushing. I do know we both use the clutch
in this
> car and heel/toe for braking downshifts.
>
> There is a mic and camera in the engine compartment, and that is
where the
> sound comes from for this video (not the cockpit camera). So we may
hear
> things that we don't typically hear while driving.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
> *The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
> Direct: 480-442-0297
>
> [3]www.PatentIt.com <[4]http://www.patentit.com/>
>
> *Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 |
*A:*
> 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> *Chicago Office *|* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:*
55 E.
>
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603 This email is intended
only
> for the recipient above and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. If you received this email in error please destroy it
and
> indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 10:57 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it just me, or is it badly grinding gears on every downshift?
> >
> > Steve, are you trying to downshift without the clutch? Or am I just
> > hearing things?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Apr 1, 2022, at 21:39, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > This 'fast lap Friday' in car video of Steve Lisa popped up in
my
> > > Facebook feed from SVRA Life, not sure if you can view without
an FB
> > > account.
> > >
> > > [1]https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > >
> > > [2]#FastLapFriday by VBOX - Anthony Lisa's 1973 DeTomaso
Panterra at
> > > Auto Club Speedway
> > > Fast Lap Friday! Join us for a lap around Auto Club Speedway
> > > compliments of VBOX Motorsport 🤩 Which view is cooler in
this
> > > video? #FastLapFriday
> > > [5]www.facebook.com
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > Visible links
> > > 1. [6]https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > > 2. [7]https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > >
> > > Hidden links:
> > > 4. [8]https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> > > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > > [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > >
> > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> > > etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > >
> > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> > > any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> > approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> > use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> > approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
> the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
approve
> the archiving of list messages.
>
References
1. http://www.PatentIt.com/
2. http://www.patentit.com/
3. http://www.PatentIt.com/
4. http://www.patentit.com/
5. http://www.facebook.com/
6. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
7. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
8. https://www.facebook.com/svralife/videos/674363803847213
9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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