[DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
L GRAY
tipo874a at msn.com
Tue Feb 2 02:49:54 EST 2021
Hey Mike,
I watched this video you just sent me. Yes the car did drive away to retire with the entire right front suspension destroyed and heavy chassis damage.
After the race it was deemed beyond reasonable costs to repair so it was “ scrapped “ and partially cut up. I’ve got some real clear photos of the damage from the shunt.... what a mess!
Leslie A. Gray
On Feb 1, 2021, at 11:31 PM, Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
Les,
One of the million videos I watched the other night actually shows the crash of the Pantera at Monza, both during and after. It drove away from the crash.
Let me look for it...
Here it is. Right after the 2:00 mark....
https://youtu.be/w4yuWzxnTh8
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 1, 2021, at 21:14, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
Hello Julian !
The Gr 4 cars had, as you stated Julian, different mounting locations, different lower rear control arms, and different sway bars with adjustable drop links. I’ll try to attach a pic from my files below - hopefully.
The Mueller car WAS crashed extremely heavily at the 1972 Monza race and actually cut up quite a bit behind the factory and placed atop another crashed Gr 4 racer, chassis number unknown to me.
As Mike stated the racers, as all race cars, continually evolve as deficiencies in original formulation were discovered, but these sway bars and control arms were on every Factory Gr 4 race car. So the question is whether the tail section of this car is not the original one or was it regressed to street specs. To take it back required cutting off of mounts and welding stock components back in place............
When this car resurfaced as restored I was actually shocked as the damage to the original chassis was catastrophic. I’m not knocking the car or it’s current custodian, just looking for answers. I’m glad it’s back on the track once more.
Almost all of the 14 Factory Gr- 4 cars have been modified to some extent to keep them somewhat currently competitive. I get that sentiment, but a few aren’t in “Factory” Gr-4 configuration any longer by quite a stretch. To each their own, just drive it and have fun, kick some butt ! ! !
<image0.jpeg>
The rear shot of 02823 rear sway bar and control arms.
Leslie A. Gray
On Feb 1, 2021, at 8:42 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike,
The video was taken at Le Mans Classic 2018, chassis 2263 / 8263. There is some documentation on the PI board of the history and back story of 2263, where it sat in De Tomaso's back lot for many years after a minor race incident and insurance claim, when it was supposedly totaled. The latter 8263 sold as a GT5 and street registered for many years before recently being restored to the Group 4 car it is again now after discovery of all the chassis strengthening and other telltale signs it could be 2263.
https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
As the first Group 4 it is of course possible it used stock components when first raced, however I think any and all of that might have been lost in translation during its later incarnation as a GT5 and subsequent restoration back toa Group 4. The Group 4 homologation papers from 1972 clearly show photos of front and rear adjustable sway bars, presumably they had to be installed to take the photos and the homologation approved prior to racing.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 8:17 PM
To: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
Les,
The car was almost brand new when the video was shot. They were subjected to a continuous improvement program, and the suspension modifications you are talking about were likely developed later.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:10, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Mike,
> I just viewed the video of the Mueller car and I am wondering how to understand the use of “stock” street Pantera lower rear control arms, along with a “stock” street rear sway bar configuration on this Factory Gr 4 race car ? Very curious ? ? ?
>
> Leslie A. Gray
>
>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect any small speed increase will be due to smoothed airflow over
>> the top of an unlatched hood and over the roof, not so much from
>> increased airflow thru the grille & radiator, then somehow over the
>> weatherstripped front trunk bulkhead and out the rear of the hood. It
>> may be the reverse with vented Sunbeam Tiger LA front hoods.
>> Remember those early comments on windshield wiper lift over 140 mph
>> with stock Panteras, and the Gr-3 (& Hall Pantera) anti-lift wiper
>> accessories to prevent this? That same lift-from-air-flow seems to be
>> pulling up on the front hood. Michael, who made your current front
>> hood? Does it have vents?
>> Curious- J DeRyke
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
>> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>; Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2021 1:48 pm
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> While at the Big Bend Open Road Race I've run with the front hood
>> latched and unlatched at speeds between
>> 120 and 150mph. Photos show an obvious bow in the hood while
>> latched.
>> While unlatched, it rose about 2 inches
>> at speed. The car in the video had a much larger blade type air dam
>> than mine and I'm sure it put much more air thru the
>> radiator and under the hood. I'm not sure what speeds he was
>> running,
>> but I don't think most of it was much higher.
>> The rear hood also rises smoothly and balances between pressure
>> zones,
>> probably reducing turbulence inside and
>> outside the rear of the car.
>> Jeff, both headlights were up. d-
>> Michael
>> Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
>> From: [2]Jeff Detrich
>> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2021 11:38 AM
>> To: [3]Mike Drew
>> Cc: [4]De Tomaso Forum
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> OOO-WEE.
>> just curious, is that the right side headlight bucket sticking up?
>> Jeff
>> 6559
>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 1:23 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
>>> [1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>> Guys,
>>>
>>> From Le Mans Classic in 2018, a great video of the ex-Herbert
>> Muller
>>> factory Gr4 Pantera. The team forgot to secure the front hood
>> and
>> it
>>> floats at speed, which is actually aerodynamically beneficial!
>>>
>>> Great sound, great video....
>>>
>>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [5][3]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [6][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>> approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>> References
>> 1. [6]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 2. mailto:[7]jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 3. mailto:[8]mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 4. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. [10]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 6. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 3. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 6. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 7. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 8. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 10. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Hey Mike,
I watched this video you just sent me. Yes the car did drive
away to retire with the entire right front suspension destroyed and
heavy chassis damage.
After the race it was deemed beyond reasonable costs to repair
so it was " scrapped " and partially cut up. I've got some real clear
photos of the damage from the shunt.... what a mess!
Leslie A. Gray
On Feb 1, 2021, at 11:31 PM, Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
Les,
One of the million videos I watched the other night actually shows the
crash of the Pantera at Monza, both during and after. It drove away
from the crash.
Let me look for it...
Here it is. Right after the 2:00 mark....
[1]https://youtu.be/w4yuWzxnTh8
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 1, 2021, at 21:14, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
Hello Julian !
The Gr 4 cars had, as you stated Julian, different mounting
locations, different lower rear control arms, and different sway bars
with adjustable drop links. I'll try to attach a pic from my files
below - hopefully.
The Mueller car WAS crashed extremely heavily at the 1972
Monza race and actually cut up quite a bit behind the factory and
placed atop another crashed Gr 4 racer, chassis number unknown to me.
As Mike stated the racers, as all race cars, continually
evolve as deficiencies in original formulation were discovered, but
these sway bars and control arms were on every Factory Gr 4 race car.
So the question is whether the tail section of this car is not the
original one or was it regressed to street specs. To take it back
required cutting off of mounts and welding stock components back in
place............
When this car resurfaced as restored I was actually shocked
as the damage to the original chassis was catastrophic. I'm not
knocking the car or it's current custodian, just looking for answers.
I'm glad it's back on the track once more.
Almost all of the 14 Factory Gr- 4 cars have been modified to
some extent to keep them somewhat currently competitive. I get that
sentiment, but a few aren't in "Factory" Gr-4 configuration any longer
by quite a stretch. To each their own, just drive it and have fun,
kick some butt ! ! !
<image0.jpeg>
The rear shot of 02823 rear sway bar and control arms.
Leslie A. Gray
On Feb 1, 2021, at 8:42 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mike,
The video was taken at Le Mans Classic 2018, chassis 2263 / 8263. There
is some documentation on the PI board of the history and back story of
2263, where it sat in De Tomaso's back lot for many years after a minor
race incident and insurance claim, when it was supposedly totaled. The
latter 8263 sold as a GT5 and street registered for many years before
recently being restored to the Group 4 car it is again now after
discovery of all the chassis strengthening and other telltale signs it
could be 2263.
[2]https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-
the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
As the first Group 4 it is of course possible it used stock components
when first raced, however I think any and all of that might have been
lost in translation during its later incarnation as a GT5 and
subsequent restoration back toa Group 4. The Group 4 homologation
papers from 1972 clearly show photos of front and rear adjustable sway
bars, presumably they had to be installed to take the photos and the
homologation approved prior to racing.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 8:17 PM
To: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
Les,
The car was almost brand new when the video was shot. They were
subjected to a continuous improvement program, and the suspension
modifications you are talking about were likely developed later.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 1, 2021, at 20:10, L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Mike,
> I just viewed the video of the Mueller car and I am wondering how
to understand the use of "stock" street Pantera lower rear control
arms, along with a "stock" street rear sway bar configuration on this
Factory Gr 4 race car ? Very curious ? ? ?
>
> Leslie A. Gray
>
>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect any small speed increase will be due to smoothed
airflow over
>> the top of an unlatched hood and over the roof, not so much from
>> increased airflow thru the grille & radiator, then somehow over the
>> weatherstripped front trunk bulkhead and out the rear of the hood.
It
>> may be the reverse with vented Sunbeam Tiger LA front hoods.
>> Remember those early comments on windshield wiper lift over 140 mph
>> with stock Panteras, and the Gr-3 (& Hall Pantera) anti-lift wiper
>> accessories to prevent this? That same lift-from-air-flow seems to
be
>> pulling up on the front hood. Michael, who made your current front
>> hood? Does it have vents?
>> Curious- J DeRyke
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com>
>> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>; Mike Drew
<mikeldrew at aol.com>
>> Cc: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jan 31, 2021 1:48 pm
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> While at the Big Bend Open Road Race I've run with the front hood
>> latched and unlatched at speeds between
>> 120 and 150mph. Photos show an obvious bow in the hood while
>> latched.
>> While unlatched, it rose about 2 inches
>> at speed. The car in the video had a much larger blade type air
dam
>> than mine and I'm sure it put much more air thru the
>> radiator and under the hood. I'm not sure what speeds he was
>> running,
>> but I don't think most of it was much higher.
>> The rear hood also rises smoothly and balances between pressure
>> zones,
>> probably reducing turbulence inside and
>> outside the rear of the car.
>> Jeff, both headlights were up. d-
>> Michael
>> Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
>> From: [2]Jeff Detrich
>> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2021 11:38 AM
>> To: [3]Mike Drew
>> Cc: [4]De Tomaso Forum
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gr4 Pantera at Le Mans video
>> OOO-WEE.
>> just curious, is that the right side headlight bucket sticking
up?
>> Jeff
>> 6559
>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 1:23 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <
>>> [1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>> Guys,
>>>
>>> From Le Mans Classic in 2018, a great video of the ex-Herbert
>> Muller
>>> factory Gr4 Pantera. The team forgot to secure the front hood
>> and
>> it
>>> floats at speed, which is actually aerodynamically beneficial!
>>>
>>> Great sound, great video....
>>>
>>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [5][3]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [6][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>> approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>> References
>> 1. [6]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 2. mailto:[7]jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 3. mailto:[8]mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 4. mailto:[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. [10]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 6. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [3]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. [4]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 3. [5]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 4. [6]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 5. [7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 6. [8]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
>> 7. [9]mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
>> 8. [10]mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 9. [11]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 10. [12]https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
>> 11. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 12. [14]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 13. [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. https://youtu.be/w4yuWzxnTh8
2. https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/pantera-2263-documented-history-of-the-first-factory-pantera-group-4-2263-8263
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
5. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
6. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
8. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
9. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
10. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. https://youtu.be/OdKqD_NfXFY
13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list