[DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Wed Aug 4 21:05:03 EDT 2021
Things seemed a little chaotic in the FIA following the '60s and Ferrari's chop-down by Ford with the Cobras in '64 and GT-40s at LeMans in '66-'69. I read somewhere that A. DeTomaso submitted a prototype Pantera to the FIA for homologation in mid-'71, and Porsche somehow 'vetoed' the submission, delaying it until 1972. I could believe either side of this story knowing how A. DeTomaso hated paperwork and details. Somewhere in the FIA homologation papers describing the street legal, road license-able Gr 3 'club racer', it says something like, 'the following modifications are legal for FIA Gr-3. Any further changes moves the car in question into Gr-4...' Then it lists most of the possible changes. About like the U.S. Prohibition ads that once said, 'Do not under any circumstances mash these dried grapes into a big jar of water and store with a teaspoon of yeast in a dark cupboard....'
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
To: Jack DeRyke <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: gdt2860 at gmail.com <gdt2860 at gmail.com>; patrickhals at gmail.com <patrickhals at gmail.com>; claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com <claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; rimovp at gmail.com <rimovp at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
Thanks for that great information. I am hoping one day to be able to crawl all over, under, and in one of the factory Group 3 Panteras.
I seem to recall that Mike Higgins here in AZ also had several Pantera's sitting dusty under tarps in his Tempe shop. I don't recall if they were racecars -- but knowing they were with Higgins would lead me to believe they were race cars. I am not sure what happened to those. Anyone know?
There are also, of course, numerous Pantera's racing in the over-the-road events like the Silver State, but as far as I can tell, none of them are built to the FIA Group 3 or Group 4 rules.
I do have all the full FIA homologation materials - mostly sent from Mike Drew and others (thanks!!!). This group is amazing. I had most of the early ones (1972-1974) translated to English to make sure I was reading them correctly.
I am sure the Group 4 Pantera's would not be allowed in "HSR Group 3" -- which is where an early 1972-FIA prep Group 3 Pantera is allowed. That also holds true for SVRA Group 5 - which requires the Pantera to be prepped "Pre-1973." However, many of the later mods that the FIA allowed for the Group 3 Pantera's after January 1, 1973, would disqualify even a Group 3 Pantera from racing in SVRA Group 5 -- but most of those mods won't kick it out of HSR Group 3. The HSR is a little more lax, e.g., even though I did a brake upgrade, HSR was ok with it. (BTW - my last email with the pictures of our build mistakenly said the SVRA approved the brake upgrade -- that was not right -- HSR allowed it, and I am pretty sure that the SVRA would not).
Anyway, my goal was to back-date my 1973 Pantera to run in accordance with the December 1972 FIA Group 3 rules, and then to make whatever additional mods I could get away with that kept me in the spirit of the pre-1973 rules to prevent from getting kicked into the faster/higher mod groups. However, the Pantera complying with the "pre-1973" FIA Group 3 rules was simply no fun to drive. So, I tried to walk the line on further mods. When someone complains, I will do what it takes to make them happy. So far, so good.
But, that leads me to the curious question of how many of the "later" mods after 12/72 were made to the currently-racing or currently-known Group 3 Panteras? Because, at least for the SVRA Group 5, those later mods will probably kick the FIA GRoup 3 Pantera into the same racing group as the much faster FIA Group 4 Pantera (SVRA Groups 6, 7, or 10 depending on level of prep). I am pretty sure that for me to go to an SVRA event and run in SVRA Group 5, I would need to undo some of the mods I made. Not so for HSR, which is just thrilled to see a Pantera Group 3 racing (even though it is customer-built and not a factory one).
Finally, I can't agree with you more regarding the cage. We put a true racing cage in SN5533 (but limited to the same six points of attachment allowed by the FIA). I simply won't race with something that isn't safe. Same with fuel cell, fire system, etc. That is also one reason we decided to do the brake upgrade, we didn't feel safe racing the original brakes, and if that keeps us alive and kicked out of SVRA -- but racing HSR -- I am good with that.
Again, major thanks to this group for helping along the way.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLCEmail: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E. Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
| | Virus-free. www.avg.com |
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:16 PM <jderyke at aol.com> wrote:
FWIW, there are two factory built Gr-3s in the U.S. (one in British Columbia, the other in So-Cal). As well as Guy Trigaux's factory GR-4 in N Carolina and Les Gray's factory GT-4 in So-Cal. Considering that there were only 34 Gr-3s and 14 GR-4/GT-4s ever factory-built, we have a high proportion of these rare racers 'locally'. Note also they are all owned by POCA members.... The other 12 GR-4s are scattered all over the world- one is still in Australia with its original owner from the '70s, I believe.
Steve, do you have the original homologation papers for the Pantera? Makes quite interesting reading and maybe could settle arguments with some Vintage inspectors. They're all in the POCA Archives along with the official 14 pg Gr-3/GR-4 Parts Lists. Note to OEM fanatics: the homologated factory roll cage may be desirable for collectors of static displays but if you want to drive your racer as it should be driven, it's no longer an acceptable safety part in the U.S. The cage's welded tube wall thickness is 0.060" while the SCCA requires 0.090" nowadays. Not sure about European rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
To: Guy Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com>
Cc: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>; Claude Dubois <claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; List DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; rimovp at gmail.com <rimovp at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
Guy,
If you are racing in the US in the coming months, please keep me posted
on your plans. Perhaps we can get a common weekend on our
calendars.
Have you considered the HSR Classic 24 at Daytona -- coming up in late
October. We are planning to bring two cars: the Pantera for the HSR
Sprint races and a Panoz Esperanta GT2 for the 24-hour. Any chance
you can make it?
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656, F: 480.535.6628
7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:17 PM Guy Trigaux <[3]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:49 PM Patrick HALS <[4]patrickhals at gmail.com>
wrote:
Honestly, Steve, if you'd race over here with a Pantera in the EU
classic series, you would quickly realize that self derision is not
very common, by far.A
Especially with some ( not all, luckily ) French and German
drivers...A
I know I will suffer after these top secret revelations, but that's how
I feelA !
Yet, I'll be so glad to race again with those gentlemen, and show them
my red lights :>))
Best !A
Pat
Candy 2862
ADA 9628
LeA mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A A 20:19, Steve Lisa
<[5]stevelisa at patentit.com> a A(c)critA :
Gotta love peopleA with a great talent for self-derision -- if you race
cars, it's pretty much a requirement.
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[6]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [7]www.avg.com
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 11:16 AM alessandro1977621
<[8]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, that's the one, 2860..
Finished Le Mans twice, in 72 and 75
Claude Dubois and Guy Trigaux can rell you stories about their car for
hours.
Just ask, they love it, and both are great story tellers, with a
fantastic sense of humor, skills and self derision
Pat
Candy 2862
Ada 9628
EnvoyA(c) depuis mon tA(c)lA(c)phone
-------- Message original --------
DeA : Steve Lisa <[9]stevelisa at patentit.com>
DateA : mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A 19:58
AA : Patrick HALS <[10]patrickhals at gmail.com>
CcA : List DeTomaso Forum <[11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Mike
Drew <[12]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, [13]rimovp at gmail.com, Guy & Denise
Trigaux <[14]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
ObjetA : Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
I found this today
--A [15]https://www.facebook.com/groups/893004427530930/posts/189880632
6950730/
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[16]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [17]www.avg.com
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 10:32 AM Patrick HALS
<[18]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
A A Hi all,A
A A I think it must be VIN 2860, one of 14 factoryA cars, which
was, in
A A period, belonging to the Belgian team " Team Willeme".A
A A ThisA car is now the property of Guy Trigaux, and in immaculate
A A condition.A >>>A I bought the car from Team WillemeA
December 15 - 1977 . Arrived late in the BeNeLux GR.2 to Gr .5 --
1978 Championship due to complete rebuild of the car . Same
Championship in 1979 : 1st in Gr .4 at the end of the season and 2nd
in the General Classification ( won by a 935 ) . IA have enjoyed
the car at VIR , Road Atlanta andA Roebling RoadA hopA(R)ng to
"test " the new pavement of CMP one of the next months ...A A
A A Patrick
A A Candy 2862
A A ADA 9628
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-------------- next part --------------
Things seemed a little chaotic in the FIA following the '60s and
Ferrari's chop-down by Ford with the Cobras in '64 and GT-40s at LeMans
in '66-'69. I read somewhere that A. DeTomaso submitted a prototype
Pantera to the FIA for homologation in mid-'71, and Porsche somehow
'vetoed' the submission, delaying it until 1972. I could believe either
side of this story knowing how A. DeTomaso hated paperwork and details.
Somewhere in the FIA homologation papers describing the street legal,
road license-able Gr 3 'club racer', it says something like, 'the
following modifications are legal for FIA Gr-3. Any further changes
moves the car in question into Gr-4...' Then it lists most of the
possible changes. About like the U.S. Prohibition ads that once said,
'Do not under any circumstances mash these dried grapes into a big jar
of water and store with a teaspoon of yeast in a dark cupboard....'
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
To: Jack DeRyke <jderyke at aol.com>
Cc: gdt2860 at gmail.com <gdt2860 at gmail.com>; patrickhals at gmail.com
<patrickhals at gmail.com>; claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com
<claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; MikeLDrew at aol.com
<MikeLDrew at aol.com>; rimovp at gmail.com <rimovp at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
Thanks for that great information. I am hoping one day to be able to
crawl all over, under, and in one of the factory Group 3 Panteras.
I seem to recall that Mike Higgins here in AZ also had several
Pantera's sitting dusty under tarps in his Tempe shop. I don't recall
if they were racecars -- but knowing they were with Higgins would lead
me to believe they were race cars. I am not sure what happened to
those. Anyone know?
There are also, of course, numerous Pantera's racing in the
over-the-road events like the Silver State, but as far as I can tell,
none of them are built to the FIA Group 3 or Group 4 rules.
I do have all the full FIA homologation materials - mostly sent from
Mike Drew and others (thanks!!!). This group is amazing. I had most
of the early ones (1972-1974) translated to English to make sure I was
reading them correctly.
I am sure the Group 4 Pantera's would not be allowed in "HSR Group 3"
-- which is where an early 1972-FIA prep Group 3 Pantera is allowed.
That also holds true for SVRA Group 5 - which requires the Pantera to
be prepped "Pre-1973." However, many of the later mods that the FIA
allowed for the Group 3 Pantera's after January 1, 1973, would
disqualify even a Group 3 Pantera from racing in SVRA Group 5 -- but
most of those mods won't kick it out of HSR Group 3. The HSR is a
little more lax, e.g., even though I did a brake upgrade, HSR was ok
with it. (BTW - my last email with the pictures of our build
mistakenly said the SVRA approved the brake upgrade -- that was not
right -- HSR allowed it, and I am pretty sure that the SVRA would
not).
Anyway, my goal was to back-date my 1973 Pantera to run in accordance
with the December 1972 FIA Group 3 rules, and then to make whatever
additional mods I could get away with that kept me in the spirit of the
pre-1973 rules to prevent from getting kicked into the faster/higher
mod groups. However, the Pantera complying with the "pre-1973" FIA
Group 3 rules was simply no fun to drive. So, I tried to walk the line
on further mods. When someone complains, I will do what it takes to
make them happy. So far, so good.
But, that leads me to the curious question of how many of the "later"
mods after 12/72 were made to the currently-racing or currently-known
Group 3 Panteras? Because, at least for the SVRA Group 5, those later
mods will probably kick the FIA GRoup 3 Pantera into the same racing
group as the much faster FIA Group 4 Pantera (SVRA Groups 6, 7, or 10
depending on level of prep). I am pretty sure that for me to go to an
SVRA event and run in SVRA Group 5, I would need to undo some of the
mods I made. Not so for HSR, which is just thrilled to see a Pantera
Group 3 racing (even though it is customer-built and not a factory
one).
Finally, I can't agree with you more regarding the cage. We put a true
racing cage in SN5533 (but limited to the same six points of attachment
allowed by the FIA). I simply won't race with something that isn't
safe. Same with fuel cell, fire system, etc. That is also one reason
we decided to do the brake upgrade, we didn't feel safe racing the
original brakes, and if that keeps us alive and kicked out of SVRA --
but racing HSR -- I am good with that.
Again, major thanks to this group for helping along the way.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656 | F: 480.535.6628 | A: 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago Office | P: 312.752.4357 | F: 312.896.5633 | A: 55 E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2]www.avg.com
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:16 PM <[3]jderyke at aol.com> wrote:
FWIW, there are two factory built Gr-3s in the U.S. (one in British
Columbia, the other in So-Cal). As well as Guy Trigaux's factory GR-4
in N Carolina and Les Gray's factory GT-4 in So-Cal. Considering that
there were only 34 Gr-3s and 14 GR-4/GT-4s ever factory-built, we have
a high proportion of these rare racers 'locally'. Note also they are
all owned by POCA members.... The other 12 GR-4s are scattered all
over the world- one is still in Australia with its original owner from
the '70s, I believe.
Steve, do you have the original homologation papers for the Pantera?
Makes quite interesting reading and maybe could settle arguments with
some Vintage inspectors. They're all in the POCA Archives along with
the official 14 pg Gr-3/GR-4 Parts Lists. Note to OEM fanatics: the
homologated factory roll cage may be desirable for collectors of static
displays but if you want to drive your racer as it should be driven,
it's no longer an acceptable safety part in the U.S. The cage's welded
tube wall thickness is 0.060" while the SCCA requires 0.090" nowadays.
Not sure about European rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lisa <[4]stevelisa at patentit.com>
To: Guy Trigaux <[5]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
Cc: Patrick HALS <[6]patrickhals at gmail.com>; Claude Dubois
<[7]claudeduboisbelgium at gmail.com>; List DeTomaso Forum
<[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Mike Drew
<[9]MikeLDrew at aol.com>; [10]rimovp at gmail.com <[11]rimovp at gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
Guy,
If you are racing in the US in the coming months, please keep me
posted
on your plans. Perhaps we can get a common weekend on our
calendars.
Have you considered the HSR Classic 24 at Daytona -- coming up in
late
October. We are planning to bring two cars: the Pantera for the HSR
Sprint races and a Panoz Esperanta GT2 for the 24-hour. Any chance
you can make it?
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: [12]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[1][13]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale Office | P: 480.535.6656, F: 480.535.6628
7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55
E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email
in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me.
Thank
you.
Virus-free. [2][14]www.avg.com
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:17 PM Guy Trigaux <[3][15]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:49 PM Patrick HALS
<[4][16]patrickhals at gmail.com>
wrote:
Honestly, Steve, if you'd race over here with a Pantera in the EU
classic series, you would quickly realize that self derision is not
very common, by far.A
Especially with some ( not all, luckily ) French and German
drivers...A
I know I will suffer after these top secret revelations, but that's
how
I feelA !
Yet, I'll be so glad to race again with those gentlemen, and show
them
my red lights :>))
Best !A
Pat
Candy 2862
ADA 9628
LeA mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A A 20:19, Steve Lisa
<[5][17]stevelisa at patentit.com> a A(c)critA :
Gotta love peopleA with a great talent for self-derision -- if you
race
cars, it's pretty much a requirement.
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: [18]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
Direct: 480-442-0297
[6][19]www.PatentIt.com
Scottsdale OfficeA |A P:A 480.535.6656A |A A F:A 480.535.6628A
|A A A:A 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Chicago OfficeA |A P: 312.752.4357A |A F: 312.896.5633A |A A: 55
E.
Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email
in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me.
Thank
you.
Virus-free. [7][20]www.avg.com
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 11:16 AM alessandro1977621
<[8][21]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, that's the one, 2860..
Finished Le Mans twice, in 72 and 75
Claude Dubois and Guy Trigaux can rell you stories about their car
for
hours.
Just ask, they love it, and both are great story tellers, with a
fantastic sense of humor, skills and self derision
Pat
Candy 2862
Ada 9628
EnvoyA(c) depuis mon tA(c)lA(c)phone
-------- Message original --------
DeA : Steve Lisa <[9][22]stevelisa at patentit.com>
DateA : mar. 3 aoA>>t 2021 A 19:58
AA : Patrick HALS <[10][23]patrickhals at gmail.com>
CcA : List DeTomaso Forum <[11][24]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>,
Mike
Drew <[12][25]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, [13][26]rimovp at gmail.com, Guy &
Denise
Trigaux <[14][27]gdt2860 at gmail.com>
ObjetA : Re: [DeTomaso] Gruppo 4
I found this today
--A
[15][28]https://www.facebook.com/groups/893004427530930/posts/189880632
6950730/
Regards,A
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC
Email: [29]SteveLisa at PatentIt.comA
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On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 10:32 AM Patrick HALS
<[18][32]patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
A A Hi all,A
A A I think it must be VIN 2860, one of 14 factoryA cars, which
was, in
A A period, belonging to the Belgian team " Team Willeme".A
A A ThisA car is now the property of Guy Trigaux, and in
immaculate
A A condition.A >>>A I bought the car from Team WillemeA
December 15 - 1977 . Arrived late in the BeNeLux GR.2 to Gr .5 --
1978 Championship due to complete rebuild of the car . Same
Championship in 1979 : 1st in Gr .4 at the end of the season and
2nd
in the General Classification ( won by a 935 ) . IA have enjoyed
the car at VIR , Road Atlanta andA Roebling RoadA hopA(R)ng to
"test " the new pavement of CMP one of the next months ...A A
A A Patrick
A A Candy 2862
A A ADA 9628
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