[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
marshallgsmith
marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
Sat May 16 16:52:46 EDT 2020
Does the car seem to run when you turn the key to start and hold there but then when you release the key, it stalls?If so, sounds like you might have a bad ballast resistor.MarshallSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com> Date: 5/16/20 11:32 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice That sounds like the problem I had at the Phoenix Fun Rally a few yearsback. Turned out I was not getting power when the ignition switch was inthe on position. When you turn ignition to the key to three start positionyou should have power on one of the leads from the switch. When yourelease the key to the run position you still need power on the otherlead. I don't recall which wire is which, but there are only 3 or 4wires. No power would indicate an ignition switch problem. The switch canbe replaced without replacing the whole key assembly. Also, those samewires go into a screw-down junction widget that can have bad connections.MikeOn Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:06 Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com> wrote:> Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has me> baffled. I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me stranded.> It's been running strong and starting immediately including right> before this situation. Last weekend I started a drive with a planned> stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out. So, the car> started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove perfectly the> 1/2 mile to the pet supply store. I turned the car off, bought dog> food and then got back in to continue my drive. Well, the car would> not start. It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the starter> was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't get a> spark. I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was getting fuel> as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle. I> thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and tried> again. Same issue. I pulled the driver side rear most plug wire and> hooked up my spark tester. It showed spark just fine. I let it sit> for an hour. Same issue. It cranked fine, would sound like it wanted> to fire but would not. Even when I floored the gas pedal while> cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very high like> it was running but would not catch to keep running. I then pulled all> the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me. They> looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which was> probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a rich> condition. So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back to my> house on a flatbed. : ( The next day when home I did the following> (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):> * Checked fuel coming into the carb. It was fine> * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and it was> getting spark at the plug just fine. I gapped the new plugs at> .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford sources for a> 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic ignition. The one> I tested showed good strong spark.> * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the rotor. They> are both about a year old.> * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may have> sheared). Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it was still> connected through the shear pin (did check it later though)> * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had recently> purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600 was leaking> fuel at the base plate area. However it was running fine and> strong before I pulled it but it may have been running rich based> on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so looked> good. Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was some issue> with the Holley. Same symptoms with the new carb....didn't start> in the same manner.> * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing. Cranked the> engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show the timing> mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set last year.> The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1 sparkplug> wire location at this timing. This tells me that the distributor> shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is still keeping> things lined up> * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same symptoms> * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin sheared or> partially sheared. It looked perfectly fine. I did notice the> inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is captured and> the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to the sender> from the ignition box was had some light surface rust. But since I> had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine. I cleaned it> up anyway while I had it out>>> Stats on my Pantera:> * Late model 74> * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt> * Stock oil pump and fuel pump> * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed nearly 30> years ago> * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum secondary (same> as the Holley set up I just took off)> * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from Hall in> 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support coming from> the control box. I wonder if this has failed?> * New MSD coil (not the oil can type). Bought this about 4 months> ago and it was working great. This is MSD, P/N: 8207 that is one> of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends for his> system. I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past and that was> easy to diagnose and replace. This new MSD coil made the engine> really run nice!> * Stock starter which cranks just fine> * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged and> cranks fine> * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up the> braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of general> maintenance a few years ago>>> So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach. Fuel, Air,> Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression. It has fuel, air, spark, and> timing. Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low mile engine> which was running super strong. I think a compression issue would have> shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one minute and> not starting the next. As far as exhaust that is working and not> clogged up in anyway. I'm at a loss here as to what it could be and> why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next. Next I'm> thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed. Not sure if those fail> in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of the spark> is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are appreciated.> Thanks, Mike>> P.S. I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional input. I> really want to get driving again : )> _______________________________________________>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes> DeTomaso mailing list> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use> the links above.>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve> the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Does the car seem to run when you turn the key to start and hold there
but then when you release the key, it stalls?
If so, sounds like you might have a bad ballast resistor.
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
Date: 5/16/20 11:32 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com>
Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good
timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
That sounds like the problem I had at the Phoenix Fun Rally a few years
back. Turned out I was not getting power when the ignition switch was
in
the on position. When you turn ignition to the key to three start
position
you should have power on one of the leads from the switch. When you
release the key to the run position you still need power on the other
lead. I don't recall which wire is which, but there are only 3 or 4
wires. No power would indicate an ignition switch problem. The switch
can
be replaced without replacing the whole key assembly. Also, those
same
wires go into a screw-down junction widget that can have bad
connections.
Mike
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:06 Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com> wrote:
> Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has me
> baffled. I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
stranded.
> It's been running strong and starting immediately including right
> before this situation. Last weekend I started a drive with a
planned
> stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out. So, the
car
> started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
perfectly the
> 1/2 mile to the pet supply store. I turned the car off, bought
dog
> food and then got back in to continue my drive. Well, the car
would
> not start. It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
starter
> was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't get a
> spark. I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was getting
fuel
> as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle. I
> thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and tried
> again. Same issue. I pulled the driver side rear most plug wire
and
> hooked up my spark tester. It showed spark just fine. I let it
sit
> for an hour. Same issue. It cranked fine, would sound like it
wanted
> to fire but would not. Even when I floored the gas pedal while
> cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very high
like
> it was running but would not catch to keep running. I then pulled
all
> the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me. They
> looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which was
> probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a rich
> condition. So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back to my
> house on a flatbed. : ( The next day when home I did the
following
> (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
> * Checked fuel coming into the carb. It was fine
> * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and it was
> getting spark at the plug just fine. I gapped the new plugs
at
> .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford sources
for a
> 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic ignition. The
one
> I tested showed good strong spark.
> * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the rotor.
They
> are both about a year old.
> * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may have
> sheared). Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it was
still
> connected through the shear pin (did check it later though)
> * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
recently
> purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600 was
leaking
> fuel at the base plate area. However it was running fine and
> strong before I pulled it but it may have been running rich
based
> on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so
looked
> good. Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was some
issue
> with the Holley. Same symptoms with the new carb....didn't
start
> in the same manner.
> * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing. Cranked the
> engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show the
timing
> mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set last
year.
> The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1
sparkplug
> wire location at this timing. This tells me that the
distributor
> shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is still
keeping
> things lined up
> * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
symptoms
> * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin sheared
or
> partially sheared. It looked perfectly fine. I did notice
the
> inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
captured and
> the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to the
sender
> from the ignition box was had some light surface rust. But
since I
> had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine. I
cleaned it
> up anyway while I had it out
>
>
> Stats on my Pantera:
> * Late model 74
> * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
> * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
> * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed nearly
30
> years ago
> * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum secondary
(same
> as the Holley set up I just took off)
> * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from Hall
in
> 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support coming
from
> the control box. I wonder if this has failed?
> * New MSD coil (not the oil can type). Bought this about 4
months
> ago and it was working great. This is MSD, P/N: 8207 that is
one
> of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends for his
> system. I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past and
that was
> easy to diagnose and replace. This new MSD coil made the
engine
> really run nice!
> * Stock starter which cranks just fine
> * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged and
> cranks fine
> * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up the
> braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of general
> maintenance a few years ago
>
>
> So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach. Fuel, Air,
> Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression. It has fuel, air, spark, and
> timing. Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low mile
engine
> which was running super strong. I think a compression issue would
have
> shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one minute
and
> not starting the next. As far as exhaust that is working and not
> clogged up in anyway. I'm at a loss here as to what it could be
and
> why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next. Next I'm
> thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed. Not sure if those
fail
> in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of the
spark
> is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are appreciated.
> Thanks, Mike
>
> P.S. I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional
input. I
> really want to get driving again : )
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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