[DeTomaso] Pantera Won't Start but has fuel, spark, good timing etc. Baffled and need Advice
Michael Becker
mikebecker679 at gmail.com
Sat May 16 14:32:44 EDT 2020
That sounds like the problem I had at the Phoenix Fun Rally a few years
back. Turned out I was not getting power when the ignition switch was in
the on position. When you turn ignition to the key to three start position
you should have power on one of the leads from the switch. When you
release the key to the run position you still need power on the other
lead. I don't recall which wire is which, but there are only 3 or 4
wires. No power would indicate an ignition switch problem. The switch can
be replaced without replacing the whole key assembly. Also, those same
wires go into a screw-down junction widget that can have bad connections.
Mike
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:06 Mike Reilly <reillyms at live.com> wrote:
> Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has me
> baffled. I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me stranded.
> It's been running strong and starting immediately including right
> before this situation. Last weekend I started a drive with a planned
> stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out. So, the car
> started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove perfectly the
> 1/2 mile to the pet supply store. I turned the car off, bought dog
> food and then got back in to continue my drive. Well, the car would
> not start. It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the starter
> was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't get a
> spark. I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was getting fuel
> as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle. I
> thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and tried
> again. Same issue. I pulled the driver side rear most plug wire and
> hooked up my spark tester. It showed spark just fine. I let it sit
> for an hour. Same issue. It cranked fine, would sound like it wanted
> to fire but would not. Even when I floored the gas pedal while
> cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very high like
> it was running but would not catch to keep running. I then pulled all
> the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me. They
> looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which was
> probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a rich
> condition. So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back to my
> house on a flatbed. : ( The next day when home I did the following
> (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
> * Checked fuel coming into the carb. It was fine
> * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and it was
> getting spark at the plug just fine. I gapped the new plugs at
> .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford sources for a
> 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic ignition. The one
> I tested showed good strong spark.
> * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the rotor. They
> are both about a year old.
> * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may have
> sheared). Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it was still
> connected through the shear pin (did check it later though)
> * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had recently
> purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600 was leaking
> fuel at the base plate area. However it was running fine and
> strong before I pulled it but it may have been running rich based
> on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so looked
> good. Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was some issue
> with the Holley. Same symptoms with the new carb....didn't start
> in the same manner.
> * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing. Cranked the
> engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show the timing
> mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set last year.
> The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1 sparkplug
> wire location at this timing. This tells me that the distributor
> shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is still keeping
> things lined up
> * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same symptoms
> * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin sheared or
> partially sheared. It looked perfectly fine. I did notice the
> inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is captured and
> the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to the sender
> from the ignition box was had some light surface rust. But since I
> had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine. I cleaned it
> up anyway while I had it out
>
>
> Stats on my Pantera:
> * Late model 74
> * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
> * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
> * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed nearly 30
> years ago
> * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum secondary (same
> as the Holley set up I just took off)
> * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from Hall in
> 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support coming from
> the control box. I wonder if this has failed?
> * New MSD coil (not the oil can type). Bought this about 4 months
> ago and it was working great. This is MSD, P/N: 8207 that is one
> of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends for his
> system. I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past and that was
> easy to diagnose and replace. This new MSD coil made the engine
> really run nice!
> * Stock starter which cranks just fine
> * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged and
> cranks fine
> * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up the
> braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of general
> maintenance a few years ago
>
>
> So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach. Fuel, Air,
> Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression. It has fuel, air, spark, and
> timing. Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low mile engine
> which was running super strong. I think a compression issue would have
> shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one minute and
> not starting the next. As far as exhaust that is working and not
> clogged up in anyway. I'm at a loss here as to what it could be and
> why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next. Next I'm
> thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed. Not sure if those fail
> in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of the spark
> is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are appreciated.
> Thanks, Mike
>
> P.S. I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional input. I
> really want to get driving again : )
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>
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-------------- next part --------------
That sounds like the problem I had at the Phoenix Fun Rally a few years
back.A A Turned out I was not getting power when the ignition switch
was in the on position.A When you turn ignition to the key to three
start position you should have power on one of the leads from the
switch.A A When you release the key to the run position you still need
power on the other lead.A A I don't recall which wire is which, but
there are onlyA 3 or 4 wires.A No power would indicate an ignition
switch problem.A The switch can be replaced without replacing the
whole key assembly.A Also,A those same wires go into a screw-down
junction widget that can have bad connections.A A
Mike
On Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:06 Mike Reilly <[1]reillyms at live.com> wrote:
A A Hi all. I'm having a starting issue with my Pantera that has me
A A baffled.A I've had the car since 1992 and it's never left me
stranded.
A A It's been running strong and starting immediately including
right
A A before this situation.A Last weekend I started a drive with a
planned
A A stop at a pet supply store near my house on my way out.A So,
the car
A A started just fine at home, warmed up a bit and then drove
perfectly the
A A 1/2 mile to the pet supply store.A I turned the car off,
bought dog
A A food and then got back in to continue my drive.A Well, the car
would
A A not start.A It turned over fine, the battery was strong, the
starter
A A was cranking but it would not start seemly like it couldn't get
a
A A spark.A I pulled the air cleaner and could see that it was
getting fuel
A A as the fuel would squirt in the carb when I gave it throttle.A
I
A A thought I may have flooded it so I let it sit 15-20 mins and
tried
A A again.A Same issue.A I pulled the driver side rear most plug
wire and
A A hooked up my spark tester.A It showed spark just fine.A I let
it sit
A A for an hour.A Same issue.A It cranked fine, would sound like
it wanted
A A to fire but would not.A Even when I floored the gas pedal
while
A A cranking it (like for a flooded engine) it would rev up very
high like
A A it was running but would not catch to keep running.A I then
pulled all
A A the plugs and cleaned them with parts cleaner I had with me.A
They
A A looked dry but black indicating they were carbon fouled which
was
A A probably from me trying to start it over and over creating a
rich
A A condition.A So I ended up getting it towed the 1/2 mile back
to my
A A house on a flatbed.A : (A The next day when home I did the
following
A A (stats on my car listed at bottom of mail):
A A A * Checked fuel coming into the carb.A It was fine
A A A * Changed to all new spark plugs. I checked for spark and it
was
A A A A getting spark at the plug just fine.A I gapped the new
plugs at
A A A A .054 based on research on this forum and other Ford
sources for a
A A A A 1974 351c in stock condition with an electronic
ignition.A The one
A A A A I tested showed good strong spark.
A A A * Pulled distributor cap and it looked fine as did the
rotor.A They
A A A A are both about a year old.
A A A * Turned rotor to see if it spun freely (e.g. roll pin may
have
A A A A sheared).A Rotor would not turn by hand so I assume it
was still
A A A A connected through the shear pin (did check it later
though)
A A A * Changed carburetor to the new Summit Racing carb I had
recently
A A A A purchased since I did notice my really old Holley 600 was
leaking
A A A A fuel at the base plate area.A However it was running
fine and
A A A A strong before I pulled it but it may have been running
rich based
A A A A on reading the plugs. The new carb had fuel squirting so
looked
A A A A good.A Figured since I had spark, that maybe there was
some issue
A A A A with the Holley.A Same symptoms with the new
carb....didn't start
A A A A in the same manner.
A A A * Pulled front engine cover to check static timing.A
Cranked the
A A A A engine by hand via the crank pulley and moved it to show
the timing
A A A A mark (16 deg BTDC) on the timing marker that I had set
last year.
A A A A The distributor rotor moved just fine to point to the #1
sparkplug
A A A A wire location at this timing.A This tells me that the
distributor
A A A A shear pin was probably fine and the timing chain is still
keeping
A A A A things lined up
A A A * Still had the same issue of not starting with the same
symptoms
A A A * Pulled the distributor to check to see if the roll pin
sheared or
A A A A partially sheared.A It looked perfectly fine.A I did
notice the
A A A A inside of the distributor where the magnetic signal is
captured and
A A A A the metal wheel that rotates with the rotor to align to
the sender
A A A A from the ignition box was had some light surface rust.A
But since I
A A A A had spark at the plugs it must still be working fine.A I
cleaned it
A A A A up anyway while I had it out
A A Stats on my Pantera:
A A A * Late model 74
A A A * Stock basic 1974 engine with 32K miles and never rebuilt
A A A * Stock oil pump and fuel pump
A A A * Edelbrock performer aluminum intake manifold installed
nearly 30
A A A A years ago
A A A * 600 CFM Summit Carb with electric choke and vacuum
secondary (same
A A A A as the Holley set up I just took off)
A A A * Duraspark 2 electronic ignition/distributor (bought from
Hall in
A A A A 1993). Mine has the green plastic colored wire support
coming from
A A A A the control box.A I wonder if this has failed?
A A A * New MSD coil (not the oil can type).A Bought this about 4
months
A A A A ago and it was working great.A This is MSD, P/N: 8207
that is one
A A A A of the coils Jon Haas (Pantera Electronics) recommends
for his
A A A A system.A I did have a oil filled coil fail in the past
and that was
A A A A easy to diagnose and replace.A This new MSD coil made
the engine
A A A A really run nice!
A A A * Stock starter which cranks just fine
A A A * New battery (about one year old) which is strong, charged
and
A A A A cranks fine
A A A * Standard stock grounds throughout the car. I did clean up
the
A A A A braided ground by the end of the transaxle as part of
general
A A A A maintenance a few years ago
A A So I've been going through the normal FASTEC approach.A Fuel,
Air,
A A Spark, Timing, Exhaust, Compression.A It has fuel, air, spark,
and
A A timing.A Compression hasn't been checked yet but it's a low
mile engine
A A which was running super strong.A I think a compression issue
would have
A A shown up with some symptoms rather than running great one
minute and
A A not starting the next.A As far as exhaust that is working and
not
A A clogged up in anyway.A I'm at a loss here as to what it could
be and
A A why it ran great one minute and wouldn't start the next.A Next
I'm
A A thinking the Duraspark 2 box may have failed.A Not sure if
those fail
A A in a mode where you get spark at the plug but the timing of the
spark
A A is off due to the box failing? Any suggestions are appreciated.
A A Thanks, Mike
A A P.S.A I will post this on the Forum as well to get additional
input.A I
A A really want to get driving again : )
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