[DeTomaso] Working on dual MC conversion like Goran (Hemi Pantera)

Sat Mar 21 13:44:27 EDT 2020

 Twisting this around in my brain.  If you push with 20 pounds, and the pedal ratio is 5 to 1, the force on the piston is 100 pounds (or slugs on a physics test).  If the piston area is 1 sq in, you would create 100 PSI.  But if the piston area is 2 sq in, wouldn't you get 50 PSI?  (PSI * area = force, so PSI = force/area)  so the the formula is:
Force (pounds) times the pedal ratio (unit-less) divided by the MC piston area (sq in)  ->  has units of pounds per sq in

Ken

    On Friday, March 20, 2020, 7:25:42 PM PDT, Joseph F Byrd, Jr <byrdjf at embarqmail.com> wrote:  

 I should stop thinking as I get so aggravated when I can’t recall how to do this stuff

In the simplest modelling, the braking system will have two equations, one for force and the other volume

The force is how much can the driver put on the pedal, amplified by lever rations and piston areas to put a desired force on the rotor.

(Driver’s foot) times the (pedal ratio) times the (MC piston area) gives the (PSI).  the (PSI) times the (caliper area) gives the (pad force on the rotor).

The volume is area traveled by the pistons during the production of the force.  For brakes this pedal travel is not a desired response like that by the hydraulic circuit of the clutch, but the inherent minimal travel from the calipers pulled back by its seal (and hose swell from pressure increase)

(caliper piston area) times the (pad pull back) gives the volume change as pressure is produced.  That volume change divided by the MC piston area gives the MC stroke, and finally the MC stroke time the inverse of the pedal ration gives the drives foot on the pedal travel.  

The pedal can not be pushed any farther in an attempt to create any more pad force on the rotor.

-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf Of Ken Green via DeTomaso
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 9:14 PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; David Nunn <dnunn at telus.net>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Working on dual MC conversion like Goran (Hemi Pantera)

 I realize the pedal ratio is higher for a non-power brake pedal set, but the correct MC piston diameter should balance that out.  I higher ratio means shorter piston stroke for the same movement.  A smaller diameter piston with a longer stroke should produce the same result.
I also have 13 inch rotors, so get the advantage of the friction applied at a longer radius.

    On Friday, March 20, 2020, 5:05:03 PM PDT, David Nunn <dnunn at telus.net> wrote:  

  Contact Scott at SACC. He has a dual M/C conversion that uses Wilwood
  pedals and no booster.

    [1]https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assembly
  -kit/

  The problem with using the OEM pedal assy. without a booster is, the
  pedals are too short to give adequate leverage.

References

  1. https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assembly-kit/
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-------------- next part --------------
   Twisting this around in my brain.  If you push with 20 pounds, and the
   pedal ratio is 5 to 1, the force on the piston is 100 pounds (or slugs
   on a physics test).  If the piston area is 1 sq in, you would create
   100 PSI.  But if the piston area is 2 sq in, wouldn't you get 50 PSI?
   (PSI * area = force, so PSI = force/area)  so the the formula is:
   Force (pounds) times the pedal ratio (unit-less) divided by the MC
   piston area (sq in)  ->  has units of pounds per sq in
   Ken

   On Friday, March 20, 2020, 7:25:42 PM PDT, Joseph F Byrd, Jr
   <byrdjf at embarqmail.com> wrote:
   I should stop thinking as I get so aggravated when I canat recall how
   to do this stuff
   In the simplest modelling, the braking system will have two equations,
   one for force and the other volume
   The force is how much can the driver put on the pedal, amplified by
   lever rations and piston areas to put a desired force on the rotor.
   (Driveras foot) times the (pedal ratio) times the (MC piston area)
   gives the (PSI).  the (PSI) times the (caliper area) gives the (pad
   force on the rotor).
   The volume is area traveled by the pistons during the production of the
   force.  For brakes this pedal travel is not a desired response like
   that by the hydraulic circuit of the clutch, but the inherent minimal
   travel from the calipers pulled back by its seal (and hose swell from
   pressure increase)
   (caliper piston area) times the (pad pull back) gives the volume change
   as pressure is produced.  That volume change divided by the MC piston
   area gives the MC stroke, and finally the MC stroke time the inverse of
   the pedal ration gives the drives foot on the pedal travel.
   The pedal can not be pushed any farther in an attempt to create any
   more pad force on the rotor.
   -----Original Message-----
   From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> On Behalf
   Of Ken Green via DeTomaso
   Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 9:14 PM
   To: [2]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; David Nunn
   <[3]dnunn at telus.net>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Working on dual MC conversion like Goran (Hemi
   Pantera)
   I realize the pedal ratio is higher for a non-power brake pedal set,
   but the correct MC piston diameter should balance that out.  I higher
   ratio means shorter piston stroke for the same movement.  A smaller
   diameter piston with a longer stroke should produce the same result.
   I also have 13 inch rotors, so get the advantage of the friction
   applied at a longer radius.
       On Friday, March 20, 2020, 5:05:03 PM PDT, David Nunn
   <[4]dnunn at telus.net> wrote:
     Contact Scott at SACC. He has a dual M/C conversion that uses Wilwood
     pedals and no booster.

   [1][5]https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assemb
   ly
     -kit/
     The problem with using the OEM pedal assy. without a booster is, the
     pedals are too short to give adequate leverage.
   References
     1.
   [6]https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assembly-
   kit/
   _______________________________________________
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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   [8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   2. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   3. mailto:dnunn at telus.net
   4. mailto:dnunn at telus.net
   5. https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assembly
   6. https://www.saccrestorations.net/pantera-dual-master-pedal-assembly-kit/
   7. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso