[DeTomaso] Charlie’s clutch
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Sat Apr 11 10:24:51 EDT 2020
Hi Everyone,
Before I start, I get it about not wanting to use Centerforce. Sometimes it's personal. Sometimes it's a previous bad experience. It doesn't really matter.
Starting...
I have run Fidanza + Centerforce for years. It was the first clutch I put in the car roughly 17 years ago. I have never had a problem with shakes or the clutch not holding. I was hard on it back then, plus I put 30-40K miles on it. Never an issue with the clutch.
The first Fidanza flywheel had issues with the PP bolts not being drilled for shoulder bolts. I have had 2 Fidanza flywheels since then (different cars + spares, I still have the original). The later flywheels were drilled for shoulder bolts. My 427 FE, btw, uses the same setup - but with a different disk for the Tremec.
The 428 in my GT500 replica that I built 20+ years ago also had Fidanza + Centerforce. Pressure was much lighter than stock. I had to remove the helper spring on the clutch pedal because the pedal would go to the floor. No problems with slippage there, either. The rear tires slipped first. That car was a beast. I believe it had Pilots on the back in size 275. It has been a while. I didn’t try sticky tires, so maybe that would have caused it to slip.
It uses Chevy PP bolts, which are larger than stock Ford. I believe the Chevy bolts are 3/8, whereas Ford are 5/16.
I can't compare with McLeod, since I've been happy with my Centerforce. I'm not saying Centerforce is better. McLeod might be better. I'm just saying I've been very happy with my Centerforce/Fidanza.
I use a long throw slave and stock throwout bearing.
The pressure plate hits the plastic inspection cover that goes in the hold in the bellhousing. I could maybe trim the cover, but I haven't bothered with it.
My 427 Cobra has the weights removed. It didn't seem to matter. That's a lot of engine in a light car, and it is already twisting the Jag half shafts. It had GoodYear Billboards when it was twisting the half shafts. So, the clutch held well enough for that.
I bought a dual disc McLeod (RST) for the Cobra just to try it out. The Cobra is currently parked because I didn't set the free play correctly. When I remove it, it's going on the shelf, and the Centerforce is going back in. The McLeod had much more pressure. I was thinking, "Damn! This isn't going to be fun in traffic." And, of course, I'm going to replace the half shafts. One thing at a time.
Will.
On 4/11/20, 2:46 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Thomas Törnblom" <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of thomas at hax.se> wrote:
I have a standard flat face bearing.
Thomas
> 11 apr. 2020 kl. 07:55 skrev Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>:
>
> Thomas,
>
> Did you use a standard flat-face throwout bearing or a rounded one typically used with diaphragm clutches?
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 10, 2020, at 20:12, Thomas Törnblom <thomas at hax.se> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I’m using a stock throwout setup but with a long throw slave cylinder. No shimming or adjustment needed. The clutch is very easy to operate even with a long throw cylinder and the extra stroke makes for easy gear shifts
>>
>> I think my clutch has passed through your house btw 😊
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Thomas
>>
>>>> 10 apr. 2020 kl. 23:49 skrev Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>:
>>>
>>> Thomas,
>>>
>>> That’s fascinating. We have always been told that a conventional 351C clutch won’t work in a Pantera due to the higher finger height which causes it to strike the inside of the bellhousing. But perhaps that’s not true for diaphragm clutches like this?
>>>
>>> What did you use for your throwout bearing? Did you have to shim it forward because of the lower finger height?
>>>
>>> The Centerforce website only gives a single application for this part number—Ford E-100 econoline Van. But the Summit website shows applications for virtually every Ford car and truck of the period.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>>> On Apr 10, 2020, at 03:30, Thomas Törnblom <thomas at hax.se> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is the one I’m currently using with my Fidanza flywheel.
>>>>
>>>> <image0.jpeg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> $375 from Summit.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>>> 10 apr. 2020 kl. 09:28 skrev Thomas Törnblom <thomas at hax.se>:
>>>>>
>>>>> No, if you use the standard 351C Centerforce clutch instead of the Pantera specific one, which works fine, there is ino machining required. I’m currently using that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a Pantera specific one and drilled the flywheel myself but as I had severe vibrations I suspected that that was the problem and replaced it with the standard 351C CF clutch, with no improvement.
>>>>> Turned out that the balancing the machine shop had done was totally wrong and I used another crank and the problem is gone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10 apr. 2020 kl. 02:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because it requires expensive (in Spain) machine work to redrill the flywheel. If they get it even a bit wrong the car will shake like a wet dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, the purchase of a $600 Centerforce aluminum flywheel. I don’t know if they offer an iron version or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that they sell a clutch that requires so much extra cost and/or effort because they can’t be bothered to make it correctly, rules them out IMHO. Their clutch itself is quite good (although the whole weights thing is a total BS gimmick they came up with to circumvent McLeod’s patent on their diaphragm clutch) and if I had one in a car I certainly would feel perfectly fine with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I would never convert a car to use it, if I could help it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2020, at 15:48, Thomas Törnblom <tipo874 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Care to tell why Centerforce is out of the question?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not trying to change anyone’s mind, just curious as I’m pleased with the ones I’ve used/am using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 9 apr. 2020 kl. 23:40 skrev Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mcleod Diaphragm, because you said he can't have a Centerforce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
>>>>>>>> Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:09 PM
>>>>>>>> To: De Tomaso Forum <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Charlie's clutch
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>> Since a Charlie is asleep on India I will ask another question on his
>>>>>>>> behalf.
>>>>>>>> He needs a new clutch, and will not be using a Centerforce so don't
>>>>>>>> even ask.
>>>>>>>> McLeod is the way to go. He has options of course.
>>>>>>>> If he sticks with a three-finger clutch he can use an organic or
>>>>>>>> dual-friction disc. These would be the simplest and least expensive
>>>>>>>> alternative.
>>>>>>>> If he switches to diaphragm style, that entails greater expense, not
>>>>>>>> even considering the added cost of the purchase of an adjustable
>>>>>>>> throwout bearing. He would also have to choose between organic or
>>>>>>>> dual-friction disc.
>>>>>>>> His motor is a 351-inch Cleveland with Aussie heads and a nice cam. So
>>>>>>>> it has loads of torque and perhaps 400-425 hp. The car is exclusively
>>>>>>>> street-driven and while the vast majority is highway cruising, he does
>>>>>>>> beat on it on occasion.
>>>>>>>> So: three-finger or diaphragm? Organic or dual-friction? He has four
>>>>>>>> options with progressively greater costs, and his budget is not
>>>>>>>> unlimited.
>>>>>>>> Weigh in with your opinions as to what he should do, and why you think
>>>>>>>> he should do what you suggest?
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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