[DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check

Sun Jun 30 16:22:03 EDT 2019

> On Jun 30, 2019, at 05:14, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
> 
>   Hi Mike, Julian,
> 
> 
>   OK, I think it is clear, it must be a wheel bearing.

>>>Uh, no. If it’s in the rear it is NEVER a wheel bearing. It may look, feel and sound like a bearing, but in fact it’s the axles. The bearings are hard, the axles are a bit soft, and undersized, and the axles wind up getting grooves worn in them, which destroys them. Dismantling them to install new bearings doesn’t fix anything. 

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> 
The pictured axle is junk. Once assembled with new bearings, it will still rock back and forth inside the bearings as before.  When you press it all apart to replace it it makes sense to install new bearings. And if you are installing new bearings it makes sense to install BETTER new bearings 

>  > With wheels off the ground I can hear light click-click when moving
>   wheel up-down in 12/6 o'clock direction.
> 
>   On left side I can also just detect tiny movement as well.

>>>You are well on the way to needing new axles (and changing the bearings at the same time) but I would call it a winter project.  And maybe not this winter. Or the next.
> 
> 
>   > Question; got a 500-600km trip scheduled next week; is it OK to use the
>   car like this and change bearings after the trip?

>>>Honestly you could probably go thousands of miles. It will slowly degrade and if left long enough, will eventually snap and a wheel will fall off. But you are a LONG way from that. 
> 
> 
> >  If I were to replace inner bearing with the double row as Mike
>   suggests, what parts should I order?
> 
>>>Here are the part numbers:

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Stock replacement outer on the right, double-row inner on the left. Insist on quality SKF or a good European or US or Japanese equivalent. Run screaming from Chinese or Mexican bearings. 
> 
> >  Other than bearings and special tool to un-do the nut, any other parts
>   I need to order?

>>>Yes.  At an absolute minimum you need new axles and new nuts. 

Pictured is a good used stock axle, and one of Larry Stock’s excellent upgrade axles (also sold by Hall).

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You can see how much more substantial the aftermarket axles are. They are a fair bit more expensive than new ‘factory’ axles, more than double the price in fact, but I would not skimp here. 
> 
> 
> >  For the front, should I only get the new nuts so I can just retighten
>   the bearings?
> 
>>>New front bearings are laughably cheap. They are standard Ford bearings, BR2 and BR6.  Under $10 each, so you might as well change them (and the hub seals, which are not standard Ford) if you don’t know the history of your existing ones. 

The stock front bearing nut is a crimp style intended for one-time use. People will reuse them and eventually the crimp portion breaks off, leaving you vulnerable to a wheel falling off. 

I prefer using either a castle nut, or a conventional thin nut with a stamped sheet metal keeper. Both require drilling the spindle for a cotter pin, a simple non-precision task.  I buy a kit from Pantera Performance Center that contains the nuts, keepers and cotter pins. 

Early cars have LH and RH threads while later ones use RH on both sides. Know before you buy.

I would characterize all of this as wintertime maintenance at this point. It will be expensive. The rear bearings will be about $450 (if you use quality SKF and not cheap Chinese junk), the spacers will have to have 12mm machined from each end, plus you will needs new axles at about $450 each, and new axle nuts at $25-30 each.  And an axle nut tool which is $100-120.  Plus a bunch of labor to take everything apart and install again.

You (and everybody) should be removing and greasing the pins/shafts that hold the bottom of the hub carriers to the lower A-arms, every few years. Chances are that you (and everybody) has not done that. It may prove difficult to remove the shafts if they are rusted/seized, which prevents you from performing all this other maintenance. Your first step should be to simply loosen the nuts and hammer the ends of the shafts with a flat-edged drift and sledgehammer, just to make sure they are free.  All you have to do is tap them a quarter inch forward, and back again, then retighten the nuts. If that’s a success you know it will come apart easily. If not, you will likely have to cut them out, which will then necessitate buying new lower shaft kits (shafts, seals, hub carrier end caps etc) which adds many hours to the job.

Not a trivial undertaking, in other words, and something to be tackled when you have a lot of time to devote to the project, and can afford to drop the tools and take a break while additional parts are ordered if necessary. 

Once done properly, it should be good for the next 40-50 years or more.

Your car is still in Germany, right? Do you have good people there who can do this work?

Mike

> 
>   From: Mike Drew [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>   Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:03 AM
>   To: Julian Kift
>   Cc: Robert Stroj; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
> 
> 
>   Julian,
> 
> 
>   But axle wear would manifest as play throughout 360 degrees, not just
>   at 12/6 o'clock?  The only thing I could think of that might explain it
>   is a bad upper ball joint? But I've never heard of an upper ball joint
>   really going bad like that?
> 
> 
>   Or, loose lug nuts?
> 
> 
>   It will take one person moving the wheels around while another peers at
>   the suspension from the back side in order to find the problem.
> 
> 
>   Mike
> 
>   Sent from my iPad
> 
>   On Jun 29, 2019, at 07:15, Julian Kift <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>   wrote:
> 
>   The vertical direction is typically wear in the wheel bearings/axle and
>   any side to side indicative that the lower bushings in the bearing
>   carrier are worn. The latter is fairly uncommon, however it is quite
>   common for the lower shaft to seize in the bushings and bind the hub
>   carrier from arcing correctly through suspension travel.
> 
> 
>   Julian
> 
>    _____________________________________________________________________
> 
>   From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
>   of Robert Stroj <[3]npdrs at maui.net>
>   Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:07 AM
>   To: Mike Drew
>   Cc: [4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
> 
> 
>   Hi Mike,
>   Thanks a lot for precise instructions!
>   Checked all 4 wheels and only little play I was able to detect was on
>   rear passenger wheel.
>   Strange is that it had absolutely no play side to side (3/9 o'clock
>   positions) but only small amount in vertical direction (12/6 o'clock).
>   Would this indicate a bearing wear or something else?
>   It can move only about 1mm measured at the tire; what is the acceptable
>   range?
>   Thanks a lot, Robert
>> On Jun 28, 2019, at 8:53 AM, Mike Drew <[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Jun 27, 2019, at 17:24, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
>   <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The time-honored way to check rear wheel bearings is to remove the
>   tub,
>>> and with a knowlegable person helping you, throw a haunch into the
>   rear
>>> fender approximately above the center of the rear wheel cutout
>   area, in
>>> line with the wheel center.
>> 
>>>>> Uh....no. That is the time-honored way to pound a big dent in your
>   fender.  No reasonable person would ever check for a bad axle that way.
>   Saying "Don't do it so hard that you dent the fender" is crazy. How
>   hard are you supposed to smash into the side of your car??? Who knows
>   the answer to that question? The only way to know for sure is to do it
>   too hard. And then you have a dented fender.
>> 
>> All you have to do is gently jack the rear of the car so the rear
>   wheels are off the ground. Grasp the tire at 3 and 9 o'clock and try to
>   wiggle it in and out. There should be NO movement. Axle wear (despite
>   how it feels and how people describe it, invariably the bearings are
>   fine and instead it's the axle that's trashed) manifests itself with
>   notable play accompanied by an audible clunking. A little play and
>   clunking is bad, and should be dealt with in a reasonably timely
>   manner. A lot of play can be catastrophic, and leads to this:
>> 
>> <image1.jpeg>
>> 
>> 
>> Most everything else Jack said is reasonably accurate.
>> 
>> It's worth mentioning that a tiny amount of play can be caused not by
>   the axle/bearing interface, but rather by the lower shaft interface
>   with the bearings in the lower part of the cast iron hub carrier. Those
>   bearings can wear which can allow unwanted movement that mimics an axle
>   going bad. Look for the source of the movement on the inside of the
>   wheel, and also check for movement with your hands at 12 and 6 o'clock.
>   If it moves both horizontally and vertically, it's almost assuredly the
>   axle. If it moves side to side but not up and down, it's probably the
>   upright/lower shaft bearings, not the axle.
>> 
>> I am a staunch advocate of replacing the stock inner bearing with a
>   double-row bearing, which spreads the load over a much greater portion
>   of the axle. It's not a perfect solution because part of the OD of the
>   bearing is unsupported by the hub carrier. But it's still better than
>   the narrow single bearing, and costs virtually nothing more.
>> 
>> Also, when pressing the hub carriers apart, support the brake rotor
>   using a large piece of iron pipe.  If you only support part of the
>   rotor in the press, the rotor can easily be shattered. I've seen it
>   happen and it ain't pretty.....
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
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> 
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