[DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Sun Jun 30 11:48:16 EDT 2019
Robert,
If it were me I would probably take the trip and fix after, I would not tell my wife!
I am not familiar with your car, is it a 71-74 or post Ford 9000 series? The later cars with the stepped axle do seem to have minor play even when new/rebuilt.
I believe there are two types of front spindle nut, one standard with a slip over keeper (micro lock) that one bends the tab over into the axle groove and a later style that is more a traditional castellated nut and cotter pin. In either case you should not require new front spindle nuts to re-torque the front wheel bearings. I normally tighten mine while rotating the wheel to verify no bind, typically I use 15ft/lb to seat the taper bearing and then back off a flat for a roughly 0.001" end play.
I think I'm right in saying the earlier spindles are left and right hand threaded and at some point changed to all right hand.
Julian
________________________________
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 5:14 AM
To: 'Mike Drew'; 'Julian Kift'
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Hi Mike, Julian,
OK, I think it is clear, it must be a wheel bearing.
With wheels off the ground I can hear light click-click when moving wheel up-down in 12/6 o’clock direction.
On left side I can also just detect tiny movement as well.
Question; got a 500-600km trip scheduled next week; is it OK to use the car like this and change bearings after the trip?
If I were to replace inner bearing with the double row as Mike suggests, what parts should I order?
Other than bearings and special tool to un-do the nut, any other parts I need to order?
For the front, should I only get the new nuts so I can just retighten the bearings?
Thanks, Robert
From: Mike Drew [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:03 AM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Robert Stroj; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Julian,
But axle wear would manifest as play throughout 360 degrees, not just at 12/6 o’clock? The only thing I could think of that might explain it is a bad upper ball joint? But I’ve never heard of an upper ball joint really going bad like that?
Or, loose lug nuts?
It will take one person moving the wheels around while another peers at the suspension from the back side in order to find the problem.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 29, 2019, at 07:15, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:
The vertical direction is typically wear in the wheel bearings/axle and any side to side indicative that the lower bushings in the bearing carrier are worn. The latter is fairly uncommon, however it is quite common for the lower shaft to seize in the bushings and bind the hub carrier from arcing correctly through suspension travel.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net<mailto:npdrs at maui.net>>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:07 AM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Hi Mike,
Thanks a lot for precise instructions!
Checked all 4 wheels and only little play I was able to detect was on rear passenger wheel.
Strange is that it had absolutely no play side to side (3/9 o’clock positions) but only small amount in vertical direction (12/6 o’clock).
Would this indicate a bearing wear or something else?
It can move only about 1mm measured at the tire; what is the acceptable range?
Thanks a lot, Robert
> On Jun 28, 2019, at 8:53 AM, Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com<mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 27, 2019, at 17:24, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The time-honored way to check rear wheel bearings is to remove the tub,
>> and with a knowlegable person helping you, throw a haunch into the rear
>> fender approximately above the center of the rear wheel cutout area, in
>> line with the wheel center.
>
>>>> Uh....no. That is the time-honored way to pound a big dent in your fender. No reasonable person would ever check for a bad axle that way. Saying “Don’t do it so hard that you dent the fender” is crazy. How hard are you supposed to smash into the side of your car??? Who knows the answer to that question? The only way to know for sure is to do it too hard. And then you have a dented fender.
>
> All you have to do is gently jack the rear of the car so the rear wheels are off the ground. Grasp the tire at 3 and 9 o’clock and try to wiggle it in and out. There should be NO movement. Axle wear (despite how it feels and how people describe it, invariably the bearings are fine and instead it’s the axle that’s trashed) manifests itself with notable play accompanied by an audible clunking. A little play and clunking is bad, and should be dealt with in a reasonably timely manner. A lot of play can be catastrophic, and leads to this:
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
> Most everything else Jack said is reasonably accurate.
>
> It’s worth mentioning that a tiny amount of play can be caused not by the axle/bearing interface, but rather by the lower shaft interface with the bearings in the lower part of the cast iron hub carrier. Those bearings can wear which can allow unwanted movement that mimics an axle going bad. Look for the source of the movement on the inside of the wheel, and also check for movement with your hands at 12 and 6 o’clock. If it moves both horizontally and vertically, it’s almost assuredly the axle. If it moves side to side but not up and down, it’s probably the upright/lower shaft bearings, not the axle.
>
> I am a staunch advocate of replacing the stock inner bearing with a double-row bearing, which spreads the load over a much greater portion of the axle. It’s not a perfect solution because part of the OD of the bearing is unsupported by the hub carrier. But it’s still better than the narrow single bearing, and costs virtually nothing more.
>
> Also, when pressing the hub carriers apart, support the brake rotor using a large piece of iron pipe. If you only support part of the rotor in the press, the rotor can easily be shattered. I’ve seen it happen and it ain’t pretty.....
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>>
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-------------- next part --------------
Robert,
If it were me I would probably take the trip and fix after, I would not
tell my wife!
I am not familiar with your car, is it a 71-74 or post Ford 9000
series? The later cars with the stepped axle do seem to have minor play
even when new/rebuilt.
I believe there are two types of front spindle nut, one standard with a
slip over keeper (micro lock) that one bends the tab over into the axle
groove and a later style that is more a traditional castellated nut and
cotter pin. In either case you should not require new front spindle
nuts to re-torque the front wheel bearings. I normally tighten mine
while rotating the wheel to verify no bind, typically I use 15ft/lb to
seat the taper bearing and then back off a flat for a roughly 0.001"
end play.
I think I'm right in saying the earlier spindles are left and right
hand threaded and at some point changed to all right hand.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 5:14 AM
To: 'Mike Drew'; 'Julian Kift'
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Hi Mike, Julian,
OK, I think it is clear, it must be a wheel bearing.
With wheels off the ground I can hear light click-click when moving
wheel up-down in 12/6 o'clock direction.
On left side I can also just detect tiny movement as well.
Question; got a 500-600km trip scheduled next week; is it OK to use the
car like this and change bearings after the trip?
If I were to replace inner bearing with the double row as Mike
suggests, what parts should I order?
Other than bearings and special tool to un-do the nut, any other parts
I need to order?
For the front, should I only get the new nuts so I can just retighten
the bearings?
Thanks, Robert
From: Mike Drew [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:03 AM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Robert Stroj; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Julian,
But axle wear would manifest as play throughout 360 degrees, not just
at 12/6 o'clock? The only thing I could think of that might explain it
is a bad upper ball joint? But I've never heard of an upper ball joint
really going bad like that?
Or, loose lug nuts?
It will take one person moving the wheels around while another peers at
the suspension from the back side in order to find the problem.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 29, 2019, at 07:15, Julian Kift <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
The vertical direction is typically wear in the wheel bearings/axle and
any side to side indicative that the lower bushings in the bearing
carrier are worn. The latter is fairly uncommon, however it is quite
common for the lower shaft to seize in the bushings and bind the hub
carrier from arcing correctly through suspension travel.
Julian
_____________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Robert Stroj <[3]npdrs at maui.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:07 AM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: [4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wheel bearing check
Hi Mike,
Thanks a lot for precise instructions!
Checked all 4 wheels and only little play I was able to detect was on
rear passenger wheel.
Strange is that it had absolutely no play side to side (3/9 o'clock
positions) but only small amount in vertical direction (12/6 o'clock).
Would this indicate a bearing wear or something else?
It can move only about 1mm measured at the tire; what is the acceptable
range?
Thanks a lot, Robert
> On Jun 28, 2019, at 8:53 AM, Mike Drew <[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 27, 2019, at 17:24, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>
>> The time-honored way to check rear wheel bearings is to remove the
tub,
>> and with a knowlegable person helping you, throw a haunch into the
rear
>> fender approximately above the center of the rear wheel cutout
area, in
>> line with the wheel center.
>
>>>> Uh....no. That is the time-honored way to pound a big dent in your
fender. No reasonable person would ever check for a bad axle that way.
Saying "Don't do it so hard that you dent the fender" is crazy. How
hard are you supposed to smash into the side of your car??? Who knows
the answer to that question? The only way to know for sure is to do it
too hard. And then you have a dented fender.
>
> All you have to do is gently jack the rear of the car so the rear
wheels are off the ground. Grasp the tire at 3 and 9 o'clock and try to
wiggle it in and out. There should be NO movement. Axle wear (despite
how it feels and how people describe it, invariably the bearings are
fine and instead it's the axle that's trashed) manifests itself with
notable play accompanied by an audible clunking. A little play and
clunking is bad, and should be dealt with in a reasonably timely
manner. A lot of play can be catastrophic, and leads to this:
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
> Most everything else Jack said is reasonably accurate.
>
> It's worth mentioning that a tiny amount of play can be caused not by
the axle/bearing interface, but rather by the lower shaft interface
with the bearings in the lower part of the cast iron hub carrier. Those
bearings can wear which can allow unwanted movement that mimics an axle
going bad. Look for the source of the movement on the inside of the
wheel, and also check for movement with your hands at 12 and 6 o'clock.
If it moves both horizontally and vertically, it's almost assuredly the
axle. If it moves side to side but not up and down, it's probably the
upright/lower shaft bearings, not the axle.
>
> I am a staunch advocate of replacing the stock inner bearing with a
double-row bearing, which spreads the load over a much greater portion
of the axle. It's not a perfect solution because part of the OD of the
bearing is unsupported by the hub carrier. But it's still better than
the narrow single bearing, and costs virtually nothing more.
>
> Also, when pressing the hub carriers apart, support the brake rotor
using a large piece of iron pipe. If you only support part of the
rotor in the press, the rotor can easily be shattered. I've seen it
happen and it ain't pretty.....
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>>
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