[DeTomaso] Vacuum source on IR manifolds
Ed Mendez
edducati at mac.com
Sat May 26 12:13:46 EDT 2018
Some additional things from my notes if you want to run a crank trigger and run in sequential injection and not bank to bank. This is my setup. I have a crank trigger for the timing controlled by the FAST and a cam sync signal only coming from the distributor.
Things needed from FAST:
Explain how to setup a 50 degree crank reference angle? Do you set the balancer on the crank to 50 degrees, set the cam sync signal to 60-130 degrees, and set the distributor to number 1 cylinder terminal and lock it? Then move the motor back to 34-36 (where my engine should make the most power) and move the phaseable rotor back to point to number one terminal? What about with a crank trigger?
If you are using a crank trigger:
When the engine is at 50 BTDC, Center the pickup on one of the magnets in the trigger wheel. Now, roll the motor to wherever you plan to run your ignition timing at the RPM where your engine produces the most torque (30 degrees, as an example). Rotate the distributor until the rotor tip is directly lined up with the #1 spark plug terminal.
==============
Ok, I understand the theory behind how this works, it’s the actual application <http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html#> of it that has me a bit thrown off. Let me recap the theory of the Crank Reference Angle setup on the FAST XFI. They want you to move the motor to 50 degrees BTDC for a magnetic pickup distributor and line up the reluctor with the pickup for number 1 cylinder. This happens on my distributor to put the rotor tip exactly under the number one post.
Now the reason for this took me a few minutes to understand but here’s the deal. The XFI gets the trigger signal at 50 degrees before it has to fire the plug. What it does is look at the number you entered in the software under Crank Reference Angle, that being 50 degrees since that was what they said to turn the motor to. Then it looks up the ignition table and looks to see what you want the advance to be at that RPM, say 30 degrees, then, it subtracts that setting from the CRA and comes up with 20 degrees. Meaning it waits for 20 degrees after getting that trigger signal to fire and it should hit right on 30 degrees.
They do tell you to put a timing light on it to make sure the ECU and the actual timing tab agree and you can adjust the CRA in the program if it’s off a few degrees so they are both saying the same thing. The reason they pick 50 degrees is apparently the ECU needs a 10 degree buffer to do the fuel and ignition computations <http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html#> and they figure in normal circumstances you won’t run more than 40 degrees advance so it should always be able to do the math in time and fire the coil when its supposed to. So that’s the first part of the setup and the theory behind it. Pretty straightforward.
The second part is to kind of compensate for what is actually happening. They say with the distributor tightened down roll the motor to where you will make the most power. Say 30 degrees again. Now of course the rotor that was right under number one post at 50 degrees has moved. Since the distributor moves at half speed that 20 degrees of crank movement moves the rotor 10 degrees out from under the number one distributor cap <http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html#> post. The idea then is that you use your phaseable rotor and move the tip back under the number one post.
================
On the FAST XFI they have you roll the engine from TDC to 50 degrees BTDC. There is a good reason for this but it would take too long to explain in this post. You then put in the distributor and get the rotor in the area of the number one wire post in the cap. You then align the reluctor to the magnetic pickup as closely as you can. Then tighten down the distributor. At this point you turn the motor back toward TDC to the point of max torque, or max advance. Basically at the point where your car is making its maximum power and the charge is going to be the hardest to fire. They want you to have the rotor directly under the distributor cap post so it has the shortest possible distance to go when it will be hardest to fire. So they then want you to phase the rotor to that spot, except you can't unbolt the distributor and mess up the earlier setup of the Crank Reference Angle or you will screw up everything.
========================
Note: Formula for locating crankshaft angle: (Diameter*Pi)/360*(number of degrees you’re looking to make the mark at). For example, if you’re trying to find the 50 degree mark for a 6.820” in diameter balancer:
(6.820*3.1416) = 21.425712
21.425712/360 = .0595158
.0595158*50 = 2.97579
That means the 50 degree mark is 2.976” BTDC.
Need the 3 pin mating weather tight connector and pins on the main harness side for the FAST #307007 1 Bar MAP sensor: Part number: DONE
Pin A – MAP return, black (tied to ground)
Pin B – MAP signal, white/violet (C20)
Pin C – MAP +5V reference, red (C24)
Need the Weather Pack plug and pins for the Fuel Pressure Sensor 30428 on the main harness side that plugs into a FPS from the EZ-EFI 301410 Electronic Fuel Pressure Kit and how do you wire this into the AUX input on the XFI harness? which pins and wires in the AUX connector? Buying Analog input harness 301402. Will this sensor 30428 work on an XFI?
Fuel pressure sensor pinout:
Light Green or white sensor
Black ground
Red power
Need Weather Pack plug and pins for the red and black Crank wires to connect to a FAST crank trigger. I believe this came in the crank trigger kit, but no longer have this.
Crank is inductive The inductive crank input is ECU pin A4. It can be found in the CRANK connector on the harness as pin A. The NOT USED discrete/Hall Effect crank input is ECU pin A8. It can be found in the CAM HALL EFFECT connector on the harness as pin F. Whichever input is not being used should be connected to ground. That is why there is a loop on that connector 301300. GOT 301301 and mate.
Cam sync is Hall effect on my MSD 2362 which has 3 wires Red, Green, Black, coming from the Cam Sync pickup. so where does that connect into the Hall Effect/Cam on the XFI Harness, I have purchased a FAST 301300 IPU Ignition adapter pigtail harness. Also need Weather Pack plug and pins to plug Cam Sync into Harness 301300.
http://www.msdignition.com/instructi...pdf?terms=2360 <http://www.msdignition.com/instructions/Products/2360.pdf?terms=2360>
The discrete/Hall Effect cam input is ECU pin A7. Both can be found in the CAM HALL EFFECT connector on the harness as pin A and pin C respectively. Whichever input is not being used (or both inputs if no cam sensor is being used) should be connected to ground.
RED: 12-14V
GREEN: SIGNAL
BLACK: GROUND
WIRE FUNCTIONS
DISTRIBUTOR HOUSING
page1image49488
Ed Mendez
edducati at mac.com
info at forzadetomaso.com
www.forzadetomaso.com
Director Forza DeTomaso. LLC
> On May 26, 2018, at 03:23, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> Thanks a lot, great info!
> Wondering how did you connect two MAP sensors; my Xfi has only connection for one?
> Did not see in software provision for second sensor?
> I have another connector for MAP on XMI harness, but I think this is only for stand-alone operation, just COP ignition without Xfi.
> I seen Holly uses built in reference sensor; that seems really nice way to get the altitude reference.
>
> Good to hear it is possible to share plenum between brakes and MAP....I guess once you are on the brakes perfect vacuum signal is not so critical.
>
> Why would it be not possible to connect IAC to same plenum?
> I thought IAC would only influence vacuum at idle; is that a problem?
>
> All the best, Robert
>
>
>
>
> On May 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com <mailto:edducati at mac.com>> wrote:
>
>> Here is a picture of mine. I have a line going to each runner then all to one small common block for brakes and MAP. I am running indexed speed density mode on my FAST XFI 2.0, I have have two MAP sensors one for manifold absolute pressure and one for barometric pressure, it takes a reading form both and adjusts for elevation. I am not running an IAC because as the article states below you would have to have two lines plumbed to each port.
>>
>> Here is a section from a forum when I was doing research.
>>
>> ======
>> Perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a more even MAP reading, go speed density for the tune. For the map signal, you need a vacuum feed from each port, tied into a common "metering block" and then to the map sensor. You cannot take a vacuum signal from a single port, needs to be from all of them. You also don't want to share that vacuum source with the iac or anything else. They make nice remote mount iac's, but again they need their own separate lines to each port. Think of something like a port-injected nitrous system with the stainless hard lines going to each port in the intake and tieing together in a billet aluminum block. On mine, there were two lines to each port hidden underneath the manifold just like a hidden nitrous kit. Then after the block where they came together we put two bulkhead fittings in the rear of the intake (one for iac and one for map) so there was a connection from the top of the intake. Totally hidden, very clean looking and works perfect.
>>
>> Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option - otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum. The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum of the dual plane / single plane intake....
>>
>> To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller incremental
>> grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or subtract.
>>
>> IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make anything/combo run like a swiss watch.
>>
>> I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection) install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.
>> ======
>>
>> In reading this however, I have the single lines to each port “the black lines in the picture” I have them going to a tiny plenum and have my brakes and MAP going to it and have no issues at all.
>>
>> I suppose this depends oil if you have a huge cam or not, in that case Don Byars makes this bitchin vacuum pump setup the for brakes that fits underneath and in front of the radiator.
>>
>> Ed<DSC_0244.jpeg>
>>> On May 25, 2018, at 22:28, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net <mailto:npdrs at maui.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, I am in process of installing IR fuel injection, using Fast Xfi 2.0.
>>> Would like to hear from someone running similar setup how did you plumb vacuum source manifold.
>>> Was planning to use just one common manifold (connected to all 8 runners) and then connect servo brake tube, MAP sensor and vacuum regulated fuel pressure regulator all to that manifold.
>>> Would that work fine or will signal from MAP get wrong readings when breaking (booster maybe reducing vacuum)?
>>> If this is fine, is there some rule on how to size this manifold?
>>>
>>> Thanks, Robert
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
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>>
-------------- next part --------------
Some additional things from my notes if you want to run a crank trigger
and run in sequential injection and not bank to bank. This is my setup.
I have a crank trigger for the timing controlled by the FAST and a cam
sync signal only coming from the distributor.
Things needed from FAST:
Explain how to setup a 50 degree crank reference angle? Do you set the
balancer on the crank to 50 degrees, set the cam sync signal to 60-130
degrees, and set the distributor to number 1 cylinder terminal and lock
it? Then move the motor back to 34-36 (where my engine should make the
most power) and move the phaseable rotor back to point to number one
terminal? What about with a crank trigger?
If you are using a crank trigger:
When the engine is at 50 BTDC, Center the pickup on one of the magnets
in the trigger wheel. Now, roll the motor to wherever you plan to run
your ignition timing at the RPM where your engine produces the most
torque (30 degrees, as an example). Rotate the distributor until the
rotor tip is directly lined up with the #1 spark plug terminal.
==============
Ok, I understand the theory behind how this works, it's the [1]actual
application of it that has me a bit thrown off. Let me recap the theory
of the Crank Reference Angle setup on the FAST XFI. They want you to
move the motor to 50 degrees BTDC for a magnetic pickup distributor and
line up the reluctor with the pickup for number 1 cylinder. This
happens on my distributor to put the rotor tip exactly under the number
one post.
Now the reason for this took me a few minutes to understand but here's
the deal. The XFI gets the trigger signal at 50 degrees before it has
to fire the plug. What it does is look at the number you entered in the
software under Crank Reference Angle, that being 50 degrees since that
was what they said to turn the motor to. Then it looks up the ignition
table and looks to see what you want the advance to be at that RPM, say
30 degrees, then, it subtracts that setting from the CRA and comes up
with 20 degrees. Meaning it waits for 20 degrees after getting that
trigger signal to fire and it should hit right on 30 degrees.
They do tell you to put a timing light on it to make sure the ECU and
the actual timing tab agree and you can adjust the CRA in the program
if it's off a few degrees so they are both saying the same thing. The
reason they pick 50 degrees is apparently the ECU needs a 10 degree
buffer to do the fuel and ignition [2]computations and they figure in
normal circumstances you won't run more than 40 degrees advance so it
should always be able to do the math in time and fire the coil when its
supposed to. So that's the first part of the setup and the theory
behind it. Pretty straightforward.
The second part is to kind of compensate for what is actually
happening. They say with the distributor tightened down roll the motor
to where you will make the most power. Say 30 degrees again. Now of
course the rotor that was right under number one post at 50 degrees has
moved. Since the distributor moves at half speed that 20 degrees of
crank movement moves the rotor 10 degrees out from under the number one
[3]distributor cap post. The idea then is that you use your phaseable
rotor and move the tip back under the number one post.
================
On the FAST XFI they have you roll the engine from TDC to 50 degrees
BTDC. There is a good reason for this but it would take too long to
explain in this post. You then put in the distributor and get the rotor
in the area of the number one wire post in the cap. You then align the
reluctor to the magnetic pickup as closely as you can. Then tighten
down the distributor. At this point you turn the motor back toward TDC
to the point of max torque, or max advance. Basically at the point
where your car is making its maximum power and the charge is going to
be the hardest to fire. They want you to have the rotor directly under
the distributor cap post so it has the shortest possible distance to go
when it will be hardest to fire. So they then want you to phase the
rotor to that spot, except you can't unbolt the distributor and mess up
the earlier setup of the Crank Reference Angle or you will screw up
everything.
========================
Note: Formula for locating crankshaft angle: (Diameter*Pi)/360*(number
of degrees you're looking to make the mark at). For example, if you're
trying to find the 50 degree mark for a 6.820" in diameter balancer:
(6.820*3.1416) = 21.425712
21.425712/360 = .0595158
.0595158*50 = 2.97579
That means the 50 degree mark is 2.976" BTDC.
Need the 3 pin mating weather tight connector and pins on the main
harness side for the FAST #307007 1 Bar MAP sensor: Part number: DONE
Pin A - MAP return, black (tied to ground)
Pin B - MAP signal, white/violet (C20)
Pin C - MAP +5V reference, red (C24)
Need the Weather Pack plug and pins for the Fuel Pressure Sensor 30428
on the main harness side that plugs into a FPS from the EZ-EFI 301410
Electronic Fuel Pressure Kit and how do you wire this into the AUX
input on the XFI harness? which pins and wires in the AUX connector?
Buying Analog input harness 301402. Will this sensor 30428 work on an
XFI?
Fuel pressure sensor pinout:
Light Green or white sensor
Black ground
Red power
Need Weather Pack plug and pins for the red and black Crank wires to
connect to a FAST crank trigger. I believe this came in the crank
trigger kit, but no longer have this.
Crank is inductive The inductive crank input is ECU pin A4. It can be
found in the CRANK connector on the harness as pin A. The NOT USED
discrete/Hall Effect crank input is ECU pin A8. It can be found in the
CAM HALL EFFECT connector on the harness as pin F. Whichever input is
not being used should be connected to ground. That is why there is a
loop on that connector 301300. GOT 301301 and mate.
Cam sync is Hall effect on my MSD 2362 which has 3 wires Red, Green,
Black, coming from the Cam Sync pickup. so where does that connect into
the Hall Effect/Cam on the XFI Harness, I have purchased a FAST 301300
IPU Ignition adapter pigtail harness. Also need Weather Pack plug and
pins to plug Cam Sync into Harness 301300.
[4]http://www.msdignition.com/instructi...pdf?terms=2360
The discrete/Hall Effect cam input is ECU pin A7. Both can be found in
the CAM HALL EFFECT connector on the harness as pin A and pin C
respectively. Whichever input is not being used (or both inputs if no
cam sensor is being used) should be connected to ground.
RED: 12-14V
GREEN: SIGNAL
BLACK: GROUND
WIRE FUNCTIONS
DISTRIBUTOR HOUSING
page1image49488
307007_600.jpg
Ed Mendez
[5]edducati at mac.com
info at forzadetomaso.com
[6]www.forzadetomaso.com
Director Forza DeTomaso. LLC
[cid:DDD8AC79-1F6B-471F-880F-E78CEB92EF53]
On May 26, 2018, at 03:23, Robert Stroj <[7]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi Ed,
Thanks a lot, great info!
Wondering how did you connect two MAP sensors; my Xfi has only
connection for one?
Did not see in software provision for second sensor?
I have another connector for MAP on XMI harness, but I think this is
only for stand-alone operation, just COP ignition without Xfi.
I seen Holly uses built in reference sensor; that seems really nice way
to get the altitude reference.
Good to hear it is possible to share plenum between brakes and MAP....I
guess once you are on the brakes perfect vacuum signal is not so
critical.
Why would it be not possible to connect IAC to same plenum?
I thought IAC would only influence vacuum at idle; is that a problem?
All the best, Robert
On May 25, 2018, at 7:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[8]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Here is a picture of mine. I have a line going to each runner then all
to one small common block for brakes and MAP. I am running indexed
speed density mode on my FAST XFI 2.0, I have have two MAP sensors one
for manifold absolute pressure and one for barometric pressure, it
takes a reading form both and adjusts for elevation. I am not running
an IAC because as the article states below you would have to have two
lines plumbed to each port.
Here is a section from a forum when I was doing research.
======
Perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a
more even MAP reading, go speed density for the tune. For the map
signal, you need a vacuum feed from each port, tied into a common
"metering block" and then to the map sensor. You cannot take a vacuum
signal from a single port, needs to be from all of them. You also don't
want to share that vacuum source with the iac or anything else. They
make nice remote mount iac's, but again they need their own separate
lines to each port. Think of something like a port-injected nitrous
system with the stainless hard lines going to each port in the intake
and tieing together in a billet aluminum block. On mine, there were two
lines to each port hidden underneath the manifold just like a hidden
nitrous kit. Then after the block where they came together we put two
bulkhead fittings in the rear of the intake (one for iac and one for
map) so there was a connection from the top of the intake. Totally
hidden, very clean looking and works perfect.
Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option -
otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very
little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to
use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but
think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum.
The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum
of the dual plane / single plane intake....
To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller
incremental
grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the
lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or
subtract.
IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make
anything/combo run like a swiss watch.
I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection)
install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST
TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to
actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the
sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.
======
In reading this however, I have the single lines to each port "the
black lines in the picture" I have them going to a tiny plenum and have
my brakes and MAP going to it and have no issues at all.
I suppose this depends oil if you have a huge cam or not, in that case
Don Byars makes this bitchin vacuum pump setup the for brakes that fits
underneath and in front of the radiator.
Ed<DSC_0244.jpeg>
On May 25, 2018, at 22:28, Robert Stroj <[9]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi, I am in process of installing IR fuel injection, using Fast Xfi
2.0.
Would like to hear from someone running similar setup how did you plumb
vacuum source manifold.
Was planning to use just one common manifold (connected to all 8
runners) and then connect servo brake tube, MAP sensor and vacuum
regulated fuel pressure regulator all to that manifold.
Would that work fine or will signal from MAP get wrong readings when
breaking (booster maybe reducing vacuum)?
If this is fine, is there some rule on how to size this manifold?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
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References
1. http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html
2. http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html
3. http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-forced-induction-nitrous/1263805-crank-reference-angle-setup-issue-on-the-fast-xfi.html
4. http://www.msdignition.com/instructions/Products/2360.pdf?terms=2360
5. mailto:edducati at mac.com
6. http://www.forzadetomaso.com/
7. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
8. mailto:edducati at mac.com
9. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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