[DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 13 17:47:53 EST 2016
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights? 5093 appears to have been modified
to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the rear.
Ken
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had. It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light. Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
> style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that were cut away and lost?
>
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not, it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
5093 appears to have been modified Inline image
to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light.
The lights were lost before I bought the car. I bought a pair of round
lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit. I have
not found lights to fit the rear.
Ken Inline image
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on
its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the
sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the
specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be
the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could
well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS
cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the
rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the
front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA
cars had. It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin
black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the
side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just
the top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only
Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence
to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In
front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized
light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.
Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not
receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the
turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the
Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the
bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both
cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece
front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars,
and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least
some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA
cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped
brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for
many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it
was in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows
4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question
in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to
deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that
is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods
for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of
some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
bumper rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top
of the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't
even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
putting GTS
> style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
were cut away and lost?
>
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped,
no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car.
Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had
the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess)
that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not,
it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if
you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and
he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your
car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If
they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a
Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to
believe one way, or the other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would
have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific
thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard
two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0200.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 243477 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0199.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 290790 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0001.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0200.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 285870 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0002.jpe>
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list