[DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Cullen McCann
cmccann1972 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 13 18:04:51 EST 2016
Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
"pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research the
other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl two pod
is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears original.
As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the record
somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
Thank you.
On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso" <
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific
nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be the
prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well be
wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic
features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear quarter
panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front fenders,
rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had. It has
GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and decklid,
blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black
extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker
panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen
that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with the
rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In front,
while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it used
a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light,
while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of
body-colored sheetmetal with no light. Flares were optional, with perhaps
a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even through
1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L
sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different,
reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals. The Euro L
used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted in
L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out
pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for
mounting them to the body. In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes
in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.
However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear
bumper. In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams
like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with
T-shaped brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did away
with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to the
1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce
from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations to
clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is
fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for
mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some
sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front bumper
rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of
the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting
GTS
> style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
were cut away and lost?
>
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the
later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L Panteras
that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess) that an early
Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal pods
on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not, it's a
Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you just
requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and he has one to
offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA
L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If they come back with
'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this specific
car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a
one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing. But
somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash somewhere
along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
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-------------- next part --------------
Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
"pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
original.A
As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
Thank you.A
On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
>A A A Hi All,
>A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
on its
>A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
in the sheet
>A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
timeframe?
>A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
GTS
>A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>A A A Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
not receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
my
>A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
for many
>A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
would expect
>A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
it was in
>A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
mounting
>A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
that
>A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
shows 4652
>A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
question in my
>A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
>A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
not
>A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
size, not
>A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
top of the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
didn't even
>A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
putting GTS
>A A A style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
fenders that were cut away and lost?
>
>A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
wrapped, no
>A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
car. Of
>A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
(read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
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