[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Himes, Terry (397C)
terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
Tue Sep 15 22:51:52 EDT 2015
I hear dat. ;-)
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
thimes at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov>
🇺🇸
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf of Dave <dave at damardirect.com<mailto:dave at damardirect.com>>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:44 PM
To: Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com<mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>>, Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com<mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com>>
Cc: POCA <detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a cup and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup hanging next to the water jug...
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Brent Stewart
Cc: spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>; detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field, thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
Dennis Valdez
On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>> wrote:
This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
"normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>>
wrote:
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
a
bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
the
red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
<[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com<mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com>> wrote:
A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
car-saavy
A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
sold to
A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand
them, or
A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
beyond
A A norm and style.
A A Richard
A A Austin, TX
A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf
of
Larry - Ohio
A A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>>
A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com<mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com>>,
'Charles
McCall'
A A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
programming
A A code
A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
then
A A eliminate
A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
unit... well
A A that
A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
person who
A A came up
A A with that one is a VP now.
A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby
A A Schrader
A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure
gauge in
A A the
A A instrument cluster.
A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
rpm.
A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
idiot
A A light in
A A the disguise of a gauge.
A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
A A FWIW,
A A Kirby
A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
<[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
A A wrote:
A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
chalk it
A A up
A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
source.
A A A A
A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
quite
A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
illogical.
A A To
A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
is
A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
then your
A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
idea
of
A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
the
A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
A A theoretical
A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
192F if
A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
factors,
A A where
A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
roughly
that.
A A A A
A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
stuck,
a leak
A A in
A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model won't
take
A A into
A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
hasn't
A A changed,
A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
gasket and
A A A you have no idea.
A A A A
A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
A A A manufacturing... A
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net<mailto:cengles at cox.net>>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
the October
A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
that they
A A A A were
A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
enjoying
the track
A A outing,
A A A A we confirmed
A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
Daytona:
A A A A seemingly very
A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
the
oil temp
A A A A indicated
A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
within a
A A A A couple
A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If nothing
else, this
A A A A warranted
A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a chat
and exchanged some
A A A A emails with one of
A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
interesting
A A A A stuff.AA First
A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
actually
A A A A measuring oil
A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
computer
A A A A model
A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
based on
A A A A current
A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
ambient
temp,
A A rpm,
A A A A engine
A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
dozens of
A A A A other data
A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
But the oil is
A A A A literally 3 feet from
A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
to
just
A A A A measure the
A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
accurate and
A A A A quicker to
A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
conditions.AA And
A A A A there's the
A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
exceptional,
but when
A A A A the
A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
programming
A A thanks
A A A A to
A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
may
not be
A A A A capable of
A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then discuss
the loan of the
A A A A Chevy old school
A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
accuracy
of
A A A A virtual oil
A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
measurement
of the
A A A A actual
A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
with
modern car
A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
A A temperature?AA What
A A A A could
A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
flabbergasted
A A by
A A A A such
A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
AA
AA AA A Confused,A
A A A A Chuck Engles
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-------------- next part --------------
I hear dat. ;-)
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Dave
<[3]dave at damardirect.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:44 PM
To: Dennis Valdez <[4]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>, Brent Stewart
<[5]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
Cc: POCA <[6]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a
cup and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
hanging next to the water jug...
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Valdez [[7]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Brent Stewart
Cc: [8]spkorb at gmail.com; [9]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
checking a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer
field, thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is
the dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer.
He said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
Dennis Valdez
On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
<[10]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
"normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
temp
gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
<[11]spkorb at gmail.com>
wrote:
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
few
years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
quite
a
bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
were
worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
in
the
red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
<[1][1][12]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
car-saavy
A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will
be
sold to
A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
understand
them, or
A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any
reason
beyond
A A norm and style.
A A Richard
A A Austin, TX
A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2][13]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on
behalf
of
Larry - Ohio
A A Time <[2][3][3][14]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4][15]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
'Charles
McCall'
A A <[4][5][5][16]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][17]detomaso at poca.com>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
programming
A A code
A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
then
A A eliminate
A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
unit... well
A A that
A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
person who
A A came up
A A with that one is a VP now.
A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: DeTomaso
[[6][18]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby
A A Schrader
A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
pressure
gauge in
A A the
A A instrument cluster.
A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or
at
rpm.
A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely
an
idiot
A A light in
A A the disguise of a gauge.
A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
pressure.
A A FWIW,
A A Kirby
A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
<[7][8][8][19]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that
I'd
chalk it
A A up
A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
reliable
source.
A A A A
A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that
is
quite
A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
illogical.
A A To
A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the
car
is
A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to
plan,
then your
A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
idea
of
A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
matches
the
A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere.
The
A A theoretical
A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway
is
192F if
A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
factors,
A A where
A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
roughly
that.
A A A A
A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
stuck,
a leak
A A in
A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
won't
take
A A into
A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
hasn't
A A changed,
A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
gasket and
A A A you have no idea.
A A A A
A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
car
A A A manufacturing... A
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A <[1][8][9][9][20]cengles at cox.net>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just
reading
the October
A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy
Camaro
that they
A A A A were
A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
enjoying
the track
A A outing,
A A A A we confirmed
A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
Daytona:
A A A A seemingly very
A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
the
oil temp
A A A A indicated
A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up
to
within a
A A A A couple
A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
nothing
else, this
A A A A warranted
A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
chat
and exchanged some
A A A A emails with one of
A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
interesting
A A A A stuff.AA First
A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
actually
A A A A measuring oil
A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what
a
computer
A A A A model
A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should
be
based on
A A A A current
A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
ambient
temp,
A A rpm,
A A A A engine
A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position
and
dozens of
A A A A other data
A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing,
yes.AA
But the oil is
A A A A literally 3 feet from
A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be
easier
to
just
A A A A measure the
A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
accurate and
A A A A quicker to
A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
conditions.AA And
A A A A there's the
A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
exceptional,
but when
A A A A the
A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
programming
A A thanks
A A A A to
A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
may
not be
A A A A capable of
A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
discuss
the loan of the
A A A A Chevy old school
A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
accuracy
of
A A A A virtual oil
A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
measurement
of the
A A A A actual
A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
with
modern car
A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
A A temperature?AA What
A A A A could
A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
flabbergasted
A A by
A A A A such
A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
AA
AA AA A Confused,A
A A A A Chuck Engles
A A A A _______________________________________________
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A A 3. [34]mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
A A 4. [35]mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 5. [36]mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
A A 6. [37]mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
A A 7. [38]mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 8. [39]mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
A A 9. [40]mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 10.
[30][30][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
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References
1. [55]mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
2. [56]mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. [57]mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
4. [58]mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
5. [59]mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. [60]mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
7. [61]mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
8. [62]mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. [63]mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
10. [64]mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
11. [54][65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. [66]mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
13. [67]mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
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24. [78]mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. [79]mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
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27. [81]mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
28. [82]mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
29. [83]mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
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References
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2. [101]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. [102]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
4. [103]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
5. [104]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. [105]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
7. [106]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
8. [107]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. [108]mailto:cengles at cox.net
10. [109]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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12. [111]mailto:cengles at cox.net
13. [112]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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22. [121]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
23. [122]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
24. [123]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. [124]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
26. [125]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
27. [126]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
28. [127]mailto:cengles at cox.net
29. [128]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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References
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8. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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11. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
12. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
13. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
14. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
15. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
16. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
18. mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
20. mailto:cengles at cox.net
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
23. mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
24. mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
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32. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
33. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
34. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
35. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
36. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
37. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
38. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
39. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
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45. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
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47. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
48. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
49. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
50. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
51. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
52. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
53. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
54. http://www.spkorb.org/
55. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
56. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
57. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
58. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
59. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
60. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
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63. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
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71. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
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73. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
74. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
75. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
76. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
77. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
78. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
79. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
80. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
81. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
82. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
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84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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86. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
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88. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
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90. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
91. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
92. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
93. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
94. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
95. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
96. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
97. http://www.spkorb.org/
98. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
99. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
100. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
101. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
102. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
103. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
104. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
105. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
106. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
107. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
108. mailto:cengles at cox.net
109. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
110. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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120. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
121. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
122. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
123. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
124. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
125. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
126. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
127. mailto:cengles at cox.net
128. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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133. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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135. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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139. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
140. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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142. http://www.spkorb.org/
143. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
144. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
145. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
146. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
147. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
148. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
149. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
150. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
151. mailto:cengles at cox.net
152. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
153. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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162. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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164. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
165. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
166. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
167. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
168. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
169. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
170. mailto:cengles at cox.net
171. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
172. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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188. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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