[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

Himes, Terry (397C) terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
Tue Sep 15 22:51:52 EDT 2015


I hear dat.   ;-)


"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
  exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
  to contact us!"

Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell:     (818) 653-8213
Fax:     (818) 393-3147
thimes at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov>
🇺🇸

From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf of Dave <dave at damardirect.com<mailto:dave at damardirect.com>>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:44 PM
To: Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com<mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>>, Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com<mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com>>
Cc: POCA <detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

This is from an engineer friend    Engineers... Would rather design a cup and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup hanging next to the water jug...

IndyDave

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Brent Stewart
Cc: spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>; detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field, thinks this is ridiculous.  When he went to check the oil on his girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He said that stuff fails and I told him I know...

Dennis Valdez

On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>> wrote:

   This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.  Reads "dead
   center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
   "normal" range.  I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
   gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
   On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>>
   wrote:
     The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
     years ago.A  It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
   a
     bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
     worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
   the
     red zone.
     Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
     Problem. Solved.
     sean
     On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
     <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com<mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com>> wrote:
       A  A There's another reason to add to the list.A  This is a very
       car-saavy
       A  A group of people.A  Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
       sold to
       A  A people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand
       them, or
       A  A even care.A  I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
       beyond
       A  A norm and style.
       A  A Richard
       A  A Austin, TX
       A  A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf
   of
       Larry - Ohio
       A  A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>>
       A  A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
       A  A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com<mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com>>,
   'Charles
       McCall'
       A  A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
       A  A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
       A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
       A  A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
       A  A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
       programming
       A  A code
       A  A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
       then
       A  A eliminate
       A  A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
       unit... well
       A  A that
       A  A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
       person who
       A  A came up
       A  A with that one is a VP now.
       A  A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
       A  A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
       A  A -----Original Message-----
       A  A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
       Behalf Of Kirby
       A  A Schrader
       A  A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
       A  A To: Charles McCall
       A  A Cc: Pantera list serve
       A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
       A  A Not quite as stupid, but..
       A  A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure
       gauge in
       A  A the
       A  A instrument cluster.
       A  A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
       rpm.
       A  A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
       idiot
       A  A light in
       A  A the disguise of a gauge.
       A  A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
       A  A FWIW,
       A  A Kirby
       A  A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
       <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
     A  A wrote:
     A  A  A  Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
     chalk it
     A  A up
     A  A  A  to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
     source.
     A  A  A  A
     A  A  A  Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
     quite
     A  A  A  unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
     illogical.
     A  A To
     A  A  A  know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
   is
     A  A  A  engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
     then your
     A  A  A  temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
   idea
     of
     A  A  A  measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
     the
     A  A  A  Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
     A  A theoretical
     A  A  A  coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
     192F if
     A  A  A  that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
     factors,
     A  A where
     A  A  A  it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
   roughly
     that.
     A  A  A  A
     A  A  A  If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
   stuck,
     a leak
     A  A in
     A  A  A  your cooling system, something that the computer model won't
     take
     A  A into
     A  A  A  account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
   hasn't
     A  A changed,
     A  A  A  but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
     gasket and
     A  A  A  you have no idea.
     A  A  A  A
     A  A  A  This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
     A  A  A  manufacturing... A
     A  A  A  On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
       A  A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net<mailto:cengles at cox.net>>
     A  A  A  wrote:
     A  A  A  A  AA  A Dear Forum,
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  A I was just reading
     the October
     A  A  A  A  Grassroots Motorsports
     A  A  A  A  AA  A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
     that they
     A  A  A  A  were
     A  A  A  A  AA  A modifying and testing on the track.
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  ".......While
   enjoying
     the track
     A  A outing,
     A  A  A  A  we confirmed
     A  A  A  A  AA  A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
     Daytona:
     A  A  A  A  seemingly very
     A  A  A  A  AA  A high engine oil temps.AA  After just a few laps,
   the
     oil temp
     A  A  A  A  indicated
     A  A  A  A  AA  A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
     within a
     A  A  A  A  couple
     A  A  A  A  AA  A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA  If nothing
     else, this
     A  A  A  A  warranted
     A  A  A  A  AA  A some talks with Chevy.
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  We had a chat
     and exchanged some
     A  A  A  A  emails with one of
     A  A  A  A  AA  A their powertrain engineers and learned some
     interesting
     A  A  A  A  stuff.AA  First
     A  A  A  A  AA  A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
     actually
     A  A  A  A  measuring oil
     A  A  A  A  AA  A temp per se.AA  The gauge actually reflects what a
     computer
     A  A  A  A  model
     A  A  A  A  AA  A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
     based on
     A  A  A  A  current
     A  A  A  A  AA  A information.AA  It takes data parameters like
   ambient
     temp,
     A  A rpm,
     A  A  A  A  engine
     A  A  A  A  AA  A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
     dozens of
     A  A  A  A  other data
     A  A  A  A  AA  A points to build a very accurate simulation.
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  Amazing, yes.AA
     But the oil is
     A  A  A  A  literally 3 feet from
     A  A  A  A  AA  A you.AA  It's right there.AA  Wouldn't it be easier
   to
     just
     A  A  A  A  measure the
     A  A  A  A  AA  A temp?AA  Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
     accurate and
     A  A  A  A  quicker to
     A  A  A  A  AA  A react than an actual gauge under normal
     conditions.AA  And
     A  A  A  A  there's the
     A  A  A  A  AA  A rub.AA  Under typical loads the model is
   exceptional,
     but when
     A  A  A  A  the
     A  A  A  A  AA  A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
     programming
     A  A thanks
     A  A  A  A  to
     A  A  A  A  AA  A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
   may
     not be
     A  A  A  A  capable of
     A  A  A  A  AA  A accurately predicting temps."
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  They then discuss
     the loan of the
     A  A  A  A  Chevy old school
     A  A  A  A  AA  A thermocouple to install and double check the
   accuracy
     of
     A  A  A  A  virtual oil
     A  A  A  A  AA  A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
   measurement
     of the
     A  A  A  A  actual
     A  A  A  A  AA  A temperature in real time.
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  What is wrong
   with
     modern car
     A  A  A  A  manufacturers?AA  A A
     A  A  A  A  AA  A computer model simulation of the engine oil
     A  A temperature?AA  What
     A  A  A  A  could
     A  A  A  A  AA  A ever go wrong with that?AA  A I am appalled and
     flabbergasted
     A  A by
     A  A  A  A  such
     A  A  A  A  AA  A things.AA  I am a Luddite.
     A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA
   AA
     AA  AA  A Confused,A
     A  A  A  A  Chuck Engles
     A  A  A  A  _______________________________________________
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       A  A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
       A  A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
       A  A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
       A  A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
       A  A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
       A  A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
       A  A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
       A  10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
       A  11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
       A  12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
       A  13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
       A  14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
       A  15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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     #1382
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   References
     1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
     2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
     3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
     4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
     5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
     7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
     8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
     10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
     11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
     13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
     14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
     16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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     20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
     22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
     23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
     24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
     26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
     27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
     29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
     30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
     32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
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     42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
     43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
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References

   1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
   2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
   5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  43. http://www.spkorb.org/
  44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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  60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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  86. http://www.spkorb.org/
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-------------- next part --------------
   I hear dat.   ;-)

   "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life

     exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried

     to contact us!"

   Terry W. Himes

   JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory

   InSight Sequence Team Lead

   Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead

   Phone: (818) 393-6261

   Cell:     (818) 653-8213

   Fax:     (818) 393-3147

   [1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov

   From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Dave
   <[3]dave at damardirect.com>
   Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:44 PM
   To: Dennis Valdez <[4]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>, Brent Stewart
   <[5]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
   Cc: POCA <[6]detomaso at poca.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

   This is from an engineer friend    Engineers... Would rather design a
   cup and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
   hanging next to the water jug...
   IndyDave
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Dennis Valdez [[7]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
   Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
   To: Brent Stewart
   Cc: [8]spkorb at gmail.com; [9]detomaso at poca.com
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
   measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
   checking a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer
   field, thinks this is ridiculous.  When he went to check the oil on his
   girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is
   the dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer.
   He said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
   Dennis Valdez

   On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
   <[10]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:

      This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.  Reads "dead

      center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a

      "normal" range.  I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
   temp

      gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!

      On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
   <[11]spkorb at gmail.com>

      wrote:

        The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
   few

        years ago.A  It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
   quite

      a

        bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
   were

        worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
   in

      the

        red zone.

        Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.

        Problem. Solved.

        sean

        On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum

        <[1][1][12]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:

          A  A There's another reason to add to the list.A  This is a very

          car-saavy

          A  A group of people.A  Most of those F-150s and Explorers will
   be

          sold to

          A  A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
   understand

          them, or

          A  A even care.A  I'd be surprised if they're there for any
   reason

          beyond

          A  A norm and style.

          A  A Richard

          A  A Austin, TX

          A  A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2][13]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on
   behalf

      of

          Larry - Ohio

          A  A Time <[2][3][3][14]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>

          A  A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM

          A  A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4][15]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,

      'Charles

          McCall'

          A  A <[4][5][5][16]charlesmccall at gmail.com>

          A  A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][17]detomaso at poca.com>

          A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

          A  A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.

          A  A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and

          programming

          A  A code

          A  A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you

          then

          A  A eliminate

          A  A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending

          unit... well

          A  A that

          A  A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The

          person who

          A  A came up

          A  A with that one is a VP now.

          A  A Follow the money, it's always about the money!

          A  A Larry (has none) - Cleveland

          A  A -----Original Message-----

          A  A From: DeTomaso
   [[6][18]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On

          Behalf Of Kirby

          A  A Schrader

          A  A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM

          A  A To: Charles McCall

          A  A Cc: Pantera list serve

          A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

          A  A Not quite as stupid, but..

          A  A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
   pressure

          gauge in

          A  A the

          A  A instrument cluster.

          A  A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or
   at

          rpm.

          A  A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely
   an

          idiot

          A  A light in

          A  A the disguise of a gauge.

          A  A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
   pressure.

          A  A FWIW,

          A  A Kirby

          A  A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall

          <[7][8][8][19]charlesmccall at gmail.com>

        A  A wrote:

        A  A  A  Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that
   I'd

        chalk it

        A  A up

        A  A  A  to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
   reliable

        source.

        A  A  A  A

        A  A  A  Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that
   is

        quite

        A  A  A  unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and

        illogical.

        A  A To

        A  A  A  know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the
   car

      is

        A  A  A  engineered properly. If everything goes according to
   plan,

        then your

        A  A  A  temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole

      idea

        of

        A  A  A  measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
   matches

        the

        A  A  A  Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere.
   The

        A  A theoretical

        A  A  A  coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway
   is

        192F if

        A  A  A  that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of

        factors,

        A  A where

        A  A  A  it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be

      roughly

        that.

        A  A  A  A

        A  A  A  If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting

      stuck,

        a leak

        A  A in

        A  A  A  your cooling system, something that the computer model
   won't

        take

        A  A into

        A  A  A  account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical

      hasn't

        A  A changed,

        A  A  A  but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a

        gasket and

        A  A  A  you have no idea.

        A  A  A  A

        A  A  A  This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
   car

        A  A  A  manufacturing... A

        A  A  A  On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles

          A  A <[1][8][9][9][20]cengles at cox.net>

        A  A  A  wrote:

        A  A  A  A  AA  A Dear Forum,

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  A I was just
   reading

        the October

        A  A  A  A  Grassroots Motorsports

        A  A  A  A  AA  A article about their project car a new Chevy
   Camaro

        that they

        A  A  A  A  were

        A  A  A  A  AA  A modifying and testing on the track.

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  ".......While

      enjoying

        the track

        A  A outing,

        A  A  A  A  we confirmed

        A  A  A  A  AA  A the third thing that had begun to concern us at

        Daytona:

        A  A  A  A  seemingly very

        A  A  A  A  AA  A high engine oil temps.AA  After just a few laps,

      the

        oil temp

        A  A  A  A  indicated

        A  A  A  A  AA  A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up
   to

        within a

        A  A  A  A  couple

        A  A  A  A  AA  A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA  If
   nothing

        else, this

        A  A  A  A  warranted

        A  A  A  A  AA  A some talks with Chevy.

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  We had a
   chat

        and exchanged some

        A  A  A  A  emails with one of

        A  A  A  A  AA  A their powertrain engineers and learned some

        interesting

        A  A  A  A  stuff.AA  First

        A  A  A  A  AA  A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't

        actually

        A  A  A  A  measuring oil

        A  A  A  A  AA  A temp per se.AA  The gauge actually reflects what
   a

        computer

        A  A  A  A  model

        A  A  A  A  AA  A simulation estimates the oil temperature should
   be

        based on

        A  A  A  A  current

        A  A  A  A  AA  A information.AA  It takes data parameters like

      ambient

        temp,

        A  A rpm,

        A  A  A  A  engine

        A  A  A  A  AA  A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position
   and

        dozens of

        A  A  A  A  other data

        A  A  A  A  AA  A points to build a very accurate simulation.

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  Amazing,
   yes.AA

        But the oil is

        A  A  A  A  literally 3 feet from

        A  A  A  A  AA  A you.AA  It's right there.AA  Wouldn't it be
   easier

      to

        just

        A  A  A  A  measure the

        A  A  A  A  AA  A temp?AA  Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly

        accurate and

        A  A  A  A  quicker to

        A  A  A  A  AA  A react than an actual gauge under normal

        conditions.AA  And

        A  A  A  A  there's the

        A  A  A  A  AA  A rub.AA  Under typical loads the model is

      exceptional,

        but when

        A  A  A  A  the

        A  A  A  A  AA  A variables start to greatly exceed the normal

        programming

        A  A thanks

        A  A  A  A  to

        A  A  A  A  AA  A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it

      may

        not be

        A  A  A  A  capable of

        A  A  A  A  AA  A accurately predicting temps."

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  They then
   discuss

        the loan of the

        A  A  A  A  Chevy old school

        A  A  A  A  AA  A thermocouple to install and double check the

      accuracy

        of

        A  A  A  A  virtual oil

        A  A  A  A  AA  A pan oil temp reality with......an actual

      measurement

        of the

        A  A  A  A  actual

        A  A  A  A  AA  A temperature in real time.

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  What is wrong

      with

        modern car

        A  A  A  A  manufacturers?AA  A A

        A  A  A  A  AA  A computer model simulation of the engine oil

        A  A temperature?AA  What

        A  A  A  A  could

        A  A  A  A  AA  A ever go wrong with that?AA  A I am appalled and

        flabbergasted

        A  A by

        A  A  A  A  such

        A  A  A  A  AA  A things.AA  I am a Luddite.

        A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA

      AA

        AA  AA  A Confused,A

        A  A  A  A  Chuck Engles

        A  A  A  A  _______________________________________________

        A  A  A  A  Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

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          A  A  A  A


   [3][10][11][11][22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  A  A  A  To manage your subscription (change email address,

          unsubscribe,

          A  A  A  A  etc.) use the links above.

          A  A References

          A  A  A  1. [11][23]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net

          A  A  A  2. [12][24]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  A  A  3.


   [13][14][14][25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  A _______________________________________________

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          A  A
   [15][16][16][27]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,

      unsubscribe,

          etc.)

          A  A use

          A  A the links above.

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          A  A DeTomaso mailing list

          A  A [16][17][17][28]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  A
   [17][18][18][29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,

      unsubscribe,

          etc.)

          A  A use

          A  A the links above.

          A  A _______________________________________________

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          A  A DeTomaso mailing list

          A  A [18][19][19][30]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  A
   [19][20][20][31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,

      unsubscribe,

          etc.)

          A  A use the links above.

          References

          A  A 1. [32]mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

          A  A 2. [33]mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

          A  A 3. [34]mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com

          A  A 4. [35]mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com

          A  A 5. [36]mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com

          A  A 6. [37]mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

          A  A 7. [38]mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com

          A  A 8. [39]mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net

          A  A 9. [40]mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  10.
   [30][30][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  11. [42]mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net

          A  12. [43]mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  13.
   [33][33][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  14. [45]mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  15.
   [35][35][46]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  16. [47]mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  17.
   [37][37][48]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          A  18. [49]mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com

          A  19.
   [39][39][50]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

          _______________________________________________

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        --

        Sean Korb [42][42][53]spkorb at spkorb.org
   [43][43][54]http://www.spkorb.org

        '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
   Pantera

        #1382

        "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller

        "Computers are useless.A  They can only give you answers." -P.

      Picasso

      References

        1. [55]mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com

        2. [56]mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

        3. [57]mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

        4. [58]mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com

        5. [59]mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com

        6. [60]mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com

        7. [61]mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

        8. [62]mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com

        9. [63]mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net

        10. [64]mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com

        11. [54][65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        12. [66]mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net

        13. [67]mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com

        14. [57][68]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        15. [69]mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com

        16. [59][70]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        17. [71]mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com

        18. [61][72]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        19. [73]mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com

        20. [63][74]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        21. [75]mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

        22. [76]mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

        23. [77]mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com

        24. [78]mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com

        25. [79]mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com

        26. [80]mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com

        27. [81]mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com

        28. [82]mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net

        29. [83]mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com

        30. [73][84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        31. [85]mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net

        32. [86]mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com

        33. [76][87]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        34. [88]mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com

        35. [78][89]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        36. [90]mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com

        37. [80][91]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        38. [92]mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com

        39. [82][93]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        40. [94]mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com

        41. [84][95]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

        42. [96]mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org

        43. [86][97]http://www.spkorb.org/

      _______________________________________________

      Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

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      use the links above.

   References

      1. [100]mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com

      2. [101]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

      3. [102]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

      4. [103]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com

      5. [104]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

      6. [105]mailto:detomaso at poca.com

      7. [106]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

      8. [107]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

      9. [108]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     10. [109]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     11. [110]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     12. [111]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     13. [112]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     14. [113]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     15. [114]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     16. [115]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     17. [116]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     18. [117]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     19. [118]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     20. [119]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     21. [120]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     22. [121]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

     23. [122]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com

     24. [123]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     25. [124]mailto:detomaso at poca.com

     26. [125]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     27. [126]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     28. [127]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     29. [128]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     30. [129]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     31. [130]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     32. [131]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     33. [132]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     34. [133]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     35. [134]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     36. [135]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     37. [136]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     38. [137]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     39. [138]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     40. [139]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     41. [140]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     42. [141]mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org

     43. [142]http://www.spkorb.org/

     44. [143]mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com

     45. [144]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     46. [145]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

     47. [146]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com

     48. [147]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     49. [148]mailto:detomaso at poca.com

     50. [149]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     51. [150]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     52. [151]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     53. [152]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     54. [153]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     55. [154]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     56. [155]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     57. [156]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     58. [157]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     59. [158]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     60. [159]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     61. [160]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     62. [161]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     63. [162]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     64. [163]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     65. [164]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com

     66. [165]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com

     67. [166]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     68. [167]mailto:detomaso at poca.com

     69. [168]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com

     70. [169]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com

     71. [170]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     72. [171]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     73. [172]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     74. [173]mailto:cengles at cox.net

     75. [174]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     76. [175]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     77. [176]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     78. [177]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     79. [178]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     80. [179]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     81. [180]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     82. [181]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     83. [182]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     84. [183]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

     85. [184]mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org

     86. [185]http://www.spkorb.org/

     87. [186]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com

     88. [187]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

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References

   1. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
   2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   3. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
   4. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
   5. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
   6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   7. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
   8. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
   9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  11. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
  12. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  13. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  14. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  15. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  16. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  18. mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  20. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  23. mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
  24. mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
  25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  32. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  33. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  34. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
  35. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  36. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
  37. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  38. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  39. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
  40. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
  41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  42. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
  43. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
  44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  45. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
  46. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  47. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
  48. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  49. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
  50. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  51. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  52. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  53. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  54. http://www.spkorb.org/
  55. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  56. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  57. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  58. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
  59. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  60. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
  61. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  62. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  63. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
  64. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
  65. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  66. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
  67. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
  68. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  69. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
  70. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  71. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
  72. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  73. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
  74. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  75. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  76. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  77. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
  78. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  79. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
  80. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  81. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
  82. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
  83. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
  84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  85. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
  86. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
  87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  88. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
  89. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  90. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
  91. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  92. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
  93. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  94. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
  95. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  96. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
  97. http://www.spkorb.org/
  98. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  99. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 100. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
 101. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 102. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 103. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 104. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 105. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 106. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 107. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 108. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 109. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 110. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 111. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 112. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 113. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 114. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 115. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 116. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 117. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 118. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 119. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 120. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 121. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 122. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 123. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 124. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 125. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 126. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 127. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 128. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 130. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 131. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 132. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 133. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 134. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 135. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 136. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 137. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 138. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 139. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 140. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 141. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
 142. http://www.spkorb.org/
 143. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
 144. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 145. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 146. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 147. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 148. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 149. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 150. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 151. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 152. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 153. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 154. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 155. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 156. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 157. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 158. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 159. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 160. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 161. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 162. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 163. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 164. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 165. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 166. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 167. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 168. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 169. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 170. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 171. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 172. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 173. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 174. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 175. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 176. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 177. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 178. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 179. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 180. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 181. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 182. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 183. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 184. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
 185. http://www.spkorb.org/
 186. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 187. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 188. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 189. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 190. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 191. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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