[DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Mon Apr 13 17:54:07 EDT 2015
If it's a Windsor based motor, you don't really need a Cleveland expert!
I thought that most vintage/historic racing bodies were stringent on everything being as it was homologated in the day? Obviously it's harder to see the internals of an engine, so I assume it's more an honor system, but when racing is involved I always wonder if everyone is honorable!
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 19:28:35 +0000
To: patrickhals at gmail.com
CC: DeTomaso at poca.com; gdt2860 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera
From: detomaso at poca.com
I have a friend who ran a Vintage NASCAR for a while, and who vintages races a real GT350. He said a dropped valve was a common failure, so make sure you put in new valve springs, even if the old springs still measure to have the spec pressure. He said he stayed at or below 7,000 RPM and his engines lasted for a while, and usually just needed freshening.
640 HP isn't much for a NASCAR motor, do you know what series it was run in? There might be some funky rules for the class it was in, you might want to make sure you don't limit yourself by what was in the engine. It seems odd, but I have read that NASCAR requires solid lifters. I'm not sure why. I would not assume that the parts were chosen to make the best engine.
Do you have a list of parts that are in the engine?
Do you have the engine roles for the class(es) you will run it?
I suspect Dan Jones can offer some really good advice if he has enough information.
Ken
From: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com; Guy & Denise Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera
Hi Ken,A
Thanks for the very quick reply.A
You are right... but I'd better have a dozen of coherent and identical
US second advises than just trusting a reputable European engine
builder who has built 25 Cleveland in his 40 years carreer. That's what
a US builder does in one year or so... . I have experienced several
disappointments in building even street engines in the EU, that I had
all my race enginesA satisfactorilyA built in the US, even if,
sometimes, there are some troubles. Life is like that. Nobody said
building engines and putting them in a race car ( even a Pantera ) are
an exact science... Especially when it comes to about 100 HP per liter
with a normally aspirated engine whose conception dates back from the
60's. Look at Formula One or World Endurance Championship ( WEC )
A today, There, we are talking about the best engineers worldwide , and
practically a no limit budget . There is a persistant rumour saying
that Mercedes Benz left a one billion euros cheque on the table for its
F1 hybrid A engine.A
Asking "obvious" questions to the Forum has always been THE solution
for me when I was " desperate" : fast, experienced , detailed, accurate
AND friendly ! I cannot thank my Forum friends enough ! The Forum saved
" my life " overnight for Le Mans Classic 2008 with Candy, I will never
forget that .
Pat
Patrick Hals
+32.476.567.898
2015-04-13 17:59 GMT+02:00 Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
Hi Pat,
If it's internally balanced, I think it should be a neutral balance
(not the 20 oz balance)A flywheel.A A Cleveland and Windsor should be
the same, but with a ZF, you need a 164 tooth flywheel.A A lot of
flywheels have removable weights, so you just take off whatever weight
is on it.A If you want it really good, have the flywheel and pressure
plate balanced together toA zero.
If the engine builder there does not already know this, he probably is
not the right builder for your engine.
Ken
A
__________________________________________________________________
From: Patrick HALS <[2]patrickhals at gmail.com>
To: [3]DeTomaso at poca.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:34 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
Pantera
A I have closed my relationship with my "fancy and moody " US engine
A builder . Those who know him had warned me about him a long time ago
A and I must now admit that they were partially right ... After the
good
A part, I now take the worse part, and the "fancy" bill, of course
:>((
A This " gentleman" sent me back my unfinished race engine at my
request.
A It A "only " needs flywheel, dry sump system and clutch.
A Here is what he writes to me : "As far as balancing the motor, it is
an
A internally balanced motor.AA If you have further questions
regarding
A how to set up this motor or finish, please refer to the mechanics
your
A are using locally as I have stated previously, our professional
A relationship is over."
A US engine builders are so used in building Ford V8 engines that I
A always had my race engines built in the US vs.EU, despite what I was
A advised over here. I shall have this engine finished over here, but
A would like to be sure of what a local ( competent ) builder will
tell
A me to finish this (expensive) engine will be the right solution.
What
A do I need in terms of flywheel? It is a Windsor based engine, NOT a
A Cleveland ( see pics ) . When I bought it ( broken ) three years
ago,
A it was supposedly delivering 640 HP.... But it has now been fully
A redone, while keeping the " good" pieces
A Many thanks for your advises.
A Pat
A Patrick Hals
A +32.476.567.898
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-------------- next part --------------
If it's a Windsor based motor, you don't really need a Cleveland
expert!
I thought that most vintage/historic racing bodies were stringent on
everything being as it was homologated in the day? Obviously it's
harder to see the internals of an engine, so I assume it's more an
honor system, but when racing is involved I always wonder if everyone
is honorable!
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 19:28:35 +0000
To: patrickhals at gmail.com
CC: DeTomaso at poca.com; gdt2860 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
Pantera
From: detomaso at poca.com
I have a friend who ran a Vintage NASCAR for a while, and who vintages races a r
eal GT350. He said a dropped valve was a common failure, so make sure you put i
n new valve springs, even if the old springs still measure to have the spec pres
sure. He said he stayed at or below 7,000 RPM and his engines lasted for a whil
e, and usually just needed freshening.
640 HP isn't much for a NASCAR motor, do you know what series it was run in? Th
ere might be some funky rules for the class it was in, you might want to make su
re you don't limit yourself by what was in the engine. It seems odd, but I have
read that NASCAR requires solid lifters. I'm not sure why. I would not assume
that the parts were chosen to make the best engine.
Do you have a list of parts that are in the engine?
Do you have the engine roles for the class(es) you will run it?
I suspect Dan Jones can offer some really good advice if he has enough informati
on.
Ken
From: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com; Guy & Denise Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera
Hi Ken,A
Thanks for the very quick reply.A
You are right... but I'd better have a dozen of coherent and identical
US second advises than just trusting a reputable European engine
builder who has built 25 Cleveland in his 40 years carreer. That's what
a US builder does in one year or so... . I have experienced several
disappointments in building even street engines in the EU, that I had
all my race enginesA satisfactorilyA built in the US, even if,
sometimes, there are some troubles. Life is like that. Nobody said
building engines and putting them in a race car ( even a Pantera ) are
an exact science... Especially when it comes to about 100 HP per liter
with a normally aspirated engine whose conception dates back from the
60's. Look at Formula One or World Endurance Championship ( WEC )
A today, There, we are talking about the best engineers worldwide , and
practically a no limit budget . There is a persistant rumour saying
that Mercedes Benz left a one billion euros cheque on the table for its
F1 hybrid A engine.A
Asking "obvious" questions to the Forum has always been THE solution
for me when I was " desperate" : fast, experienced , detailed, accurate
AND friendly ! I cannot thank my Forum friends enough ! The Forum saved
" my life " overnight for Le Mans Classic 2008 with Candy, I will never
forget that .
Pat
Patrick Hals
+32.476.567.898
2015-04-13 17:59 GMT+02:00 Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
Hi Pat,
If it's internally balanced, I think it should be a neutral balance
(not the 20 oz balance)A flywheel.A A Cleveland and Windsor should be
the same, but with a ZF, you need a 164 tooth flywheel.A A lot of
flywheels have removable weights, so you just take off whatever weight
is on it.A If you want it really good, have the flywheel and pressure
plate balanced together toA zero.
If the engine builder there does not already know this, he probably is
not the right builder for your engine.
Ken
A
__________________________________________________________________
From: Patrick HALS <[2]patrickhals at gmail.com>
To: [3]DeTomaso at poca.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:34 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
Pantera
A I have closed my relationship with my "fancy and moody " US engine
A builder . Those who know him had warned me about him a long time ago
A and I must now admit that they were partially right ... After the
good
A part, I now take the worse part, and the "fancy" bill, of course
:>((
A This " gentleman" sent me back my unfinished race engine at my
request.
A It A "only " needs flywheel, dry sump system and clutch.
A Here is what he writes to me : "As far as balancing the motor, it is
an
A internally balanced motor.AA If you have further questions
regarding
A how to set up this motor or finish, please refer to the mechanics
your
A are using locally as I have stated previously, our professional
A relationship is over."
A US engine builders are so used in building Ford V8 engines that I
A always had my race engines built in the US vs.EU, despite what I was
A advised over here. I shall have this engine finished over here, but
A would like to be sure of what a local ( competent ) builder will
tell
A me to finish this (expensive) engine will be the right solution.
What
A do I need in terms of flywheel? It is a Windsor based engine, NOT a
A Cleveland ( see pics ) . When I bought it ( broken ) three years
ago,
A it was supposedly delivering 640 HP.... But it has now been fully
A redone, while keeping the " good" pieces
A Many thanks for your advises.
A Pat
A Patrick Hals
A +32.476.567.898
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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3. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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