[DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Tue Jul 22 17:02:35 EDT 2014
Well put.
I used to rev the crap out of my 302 in high school. I spun lots of
bearings, but I never broke anything so bad that I had to replace the block.
But it also had original 302 4V heads, though. Tiny ports and valves.
I also revved the crap out of my 428 FE. I never worried about it coming
apart. The Y-block design feels like Fort Knox.
I don’t feel safe revving a 351C block. As someone once said, the 302 Boss
was 9,000 RPM heads on a 6,000 RPM block.
From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 1:52 PM
To: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, De Tomaso List
<detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I agree.
> 500HP is probably a safe limit and I don¹t know, 6,000 RPM - on a stock
> block, built right. Sure you can go higher, but it is gambling at a point.
The original 377 stroker that I built back in 1998 turned 7000 rpm + for
many, many years.
It was my drive to work car.
I think Dave Bell called it the 'indestructible Cleveland stroker' or
something like that one time.
The thing was... it was probably only 450HP or so. When I dyno'd it on a
chassis dyno, it peaked at 366HP at the rear wheels.
Probably the reason it lasted so long....
Each time I've tried to go over 500HP, I've broken something with a
Cleveland.
I know you can do it, but it's so much easier on your peace of mind and your
wallet using an SVO or after market block.
FWIW,
Kirby
>
> On 7/15/14, 10:29 AM, "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift
>> > <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > A A A Before you spend any money on a build take the block and get
>> > the
>> > A A cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because it's a
>> > stock block
>> > A A doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.
>> >
>> > Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think much of
>> > it.
>> > Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
>> > Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other side....
>> > Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.A
>> > You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay together
>> > better.
>> > I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and some good
>> > old 4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
>> > Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on it.
>> > :-)
>> > FWIW,
>> > Kirby
>> > A
>> >
>> > Better still if you are
>> > A A spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an aftermarket
>> > iron
>> > A A block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are casting, then
>> > you can
>> > A A increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the fastest guy
>> > on the
>> > A A bench.
>> > A A Julian
>> > A A Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
>> > A A From: [2]boyd411 at gmail.com
>> > A A To: [3]cengles at cox.net
>> > A A CC: [4]detomaso at poca.com
>> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
>> >
>> > Chuck,
>> > I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged crank, shot
>> > peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high quality
>> > roller
>> > rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners melling oil
>> > pump,
>> > 180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters. And an IR
>> > efi
>> > system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation predicts
>> > HP in
>> > the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they thought 500
>> > hp
>> > was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have heard of
>> > stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious to know
>> > if
>> > there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to exceed.
>> > (
>> > Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but how much
>> > can
>> > the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so that the
>> > block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve something like
>> > one
>> > of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this makes my
>> > question more clear.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles <[5]cengles at cox.net>
>> > wrote:
>>> > > Dear Boyd,
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > A A A A A Oh, boy. A An opinion question.................
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>>> > > A A A A A See below.
>>> > >
>>> > > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit for a
>> >
>>> > > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal displacement?
>> > No A over
>> >
>>> > > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers, cam,
>>> > > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing, strongest
>> > possible
>>> > > rotating assembly.
>>> > > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp, 600 hp
>> > higher?
>> >
>>> > > If it is possible to reach A these HP numbers while not exceeding
>> > 7000 rpm
>> >
>>> > > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>>> > > 1) A Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of details. A
>> > Block
>> >
>>> > > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or drag
>> > racing,
>>> > > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>>> > > 2) A New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block, reasonable
>> > 4V quench
>> >
>>> > > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake manifold and
>> > a
>> >
>>> > > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do? A Well,
>> > it
>>> > > depends. A It depends on the application. A It depends on the
>> > machinist and
>>> > > the engine builder. A I am not an engine expert, but I have built
>> > four
>> >
>>> > > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making plans
>> > for the
>> >
>>> > > next one. A Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine with stock
>> > block,
>>> > > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits. A Rpm max about 6000
>> > before
>>> > > valve float. A More attention to detail can result in a 485 hp
>> > engine and a
>>> > > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float. A The current engine with the
>> > same
>> >
>>> > > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more expensive
>> > valve
>> >
>>> > > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm limit. A
>> > The cost
>>> > > goes up with HP and rpm limit. A The higher goal you set will
>> > require
>>> > > higher dollars.
>>> > >
>>> > > 3) A I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam, high
>> > compression
>> >
>>> > > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life span
>> > numbers
>>> > > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>>> > > A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, A Chuck Engles
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> > A A _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
>> > Managed
>> > A A by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [6]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> > A A [7]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>> > [8]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> > [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> >
>> >References
>> >
>> > 1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
>> > 2. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
>> > 3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> > 4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> > 5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> > 6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> > 7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> > 8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> > 9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >
>> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >
>> >DeTomaso mailing list
>> >DeTomaso at poca.com
>> >http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Well put.
I used to rev the crap out of my 302 in high school. I spun lots of
bearings, but I never broke anything so bad that I had to replace the
block. But it also had original 302 4V heads, though. Tiny ports and
valves.
I also revved the crap out of my 428 FE. I never worried about it
coming apart. The Y-block design feels like Fort Knox.
I don't feel safe revving a 351C block. As someone once said, the 302
Boss was 9,000 RPM heads on a 6,000 RPM block.
From: Kirby Schrader <[1]kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 1:52 PM
To: Will Kooiman <[2]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com>, De Tomaso List
<[4]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Will Kooiman
<[5]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.
500HP is probably a safe limit and I don(c)oet know, 6,000 RPM - on
a stock
block, built right. Sure you can go higher, but it is gambling at a
point.
The original 377 stroker that I built back in 1998 turned 7000 rpm +
for many, many years.
It was my drive to work car.
I think Dave Bell called it the 'indestructible Cleveland stroker' or
something like that one time.
The thing was... it was probably only 450HP or so. When I dyno'd it on
a chassis dyno, it peaked at 366HP at the rear wheels.
Probably the reason it lasted so long....
Each time I've tried to go over 500HP, I've broken something with a
Cleveland.
I know you can do it, but it's so much easier on your peace of mind and
your wallet using an SVO or after market block.
FWIW,
Kirby
On 7/15/14, 10:29 AM, "Kirby Schrader" <[6]kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift
> <[1][7]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A A Before you spend any money on a build take the block and
get
> the
> A A cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because it's
a
> stock block
> A A doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.
>
> Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think
much of
> it.
> Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
> Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other
side....
> Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.A
> You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay together
> better.
> I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and some
good
> old 4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
> Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on
it.
> :-)
> FWIW,
> Kirby
> A
>
> Better still if you are
> A A spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an
aftermarket
> iron
> A A block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are
casting, then
> you can
> A A increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the
fastest guy
> on the
> A A bench.
> A A Julian
> A A Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
> A A From: [2][8]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A To: [3][9]cengles at cox.net
> A A CC: [4][10]detomaso at poca.com
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
>
> Chuck,
> I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged crank,
shot
> peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high
quality
> roller
> rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners
melling oil
> pump,
> 180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters. And
an IR
> efi
> system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation
predicts
> HP in
> the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they
thought 500
> hp
> was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have
heard of
> stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious
to know
> if
> there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to
exceed.
> (
> Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but how
much
> can
> the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so
that the
> block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve
something like
> one
> of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this
makes my
> question more clear.
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles
<[5][11]cengles at cox.net>
> wrote:
> > Dear Boyd,
> >
> >
> > A A A A A Oh, boy. A An opinion
question.................
> >
> >
>
> > A A A A A See below.
> >
> > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit
for a
>
> > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal
displacement?
> No A over
>
> > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers,
cam,
> > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing,
strongest
> possible
> > rotating assembly.
> > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp,
600 hp
> higher?
>
> > If it is possible to reach A these HP numbers while not
exceeding
> 7000 rpm
>
> > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
> >
> >
>
> > 1) A Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of details.
A
> Block
>
> > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or
drag
> racing,
> > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
> >
> >
>
> > 2) A New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block,
reasonable
> 4V quench
>
> > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake
manifold and
> a
>
> > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do? A
Well,
> it
> > depends. A It depends on the application. A It depends on
the
> machinist and
> > the engine builder. A I am not an engine expert, but I have
built
> four
>
> > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making
plans
> for the
>
> > next one. A Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine with
stock
> block,
> > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits. A Rpm max
about 6000
> before
> > valve float. A More attention to detail can result in a 485
hp
> engine and a
> > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float. A The current engine
with the
> same
>
> > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more
expensive
> valve
>
> > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm limit.
A
> The cost
> > goes up with HP and rpm limit. A The higher goal you set
will
> require
> > higher dollars.
> >
> > 3) A I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam,
high
> compression
>
> > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life
span
> numbers
> > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
> >
> >
>
> > A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, A Chuck
Engles
> >
> >
> >
> A A _______________________________________________ Detomaso
Forum
> Managed
> A A by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [6][12]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A [7][13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [8][14]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [9][15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:[16]julian_kift at hotmail.com
> 2. mailto:[17]boyd411 at gmail.com
> 3. mailto:[18]cengles at cox.net
> 4. mailto:[19]detomaso at poca.com
> 5. mailto:[20]cengles at cox.net
> 6. mailto:[21]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 7. [22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 8. mailto:[23]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 9. [24]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
>DeTomaso mailing list
>[25]DeTomaso at poca.com
>[26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
2. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
6. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
7. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
8. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:cengles at cox.net
12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
16. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
17. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
20. mailto:cengles at cox.net
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
23. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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