[DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Tue Jul 22 13:52:51 EDT 2014
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I agree.
> 500HP is probably a safe limit and I don¹t know, 6,000 RPM - on a stock
> block, built right. Sure you can go higher, but it is gambling at a point.
>
The original 377 stroker that I built back in 1998 turned 7000 rpm + for
many, many years.
It was my drive to work car.
I think Dave Bell called it the 'indestructible Cleveland stroker' or
something like that one time.
The thing was... it was probably only 450HP or so. When I dyno'd it on a
chassis dyno, it peaked at 366HP at the rear wheels.
Probably the reason it lasted so long....
Each time I've tried to go over 500HP, I've broken something with a
Cleveland.
I know you can do it, but it's so much easier on your peace of mind and
your wallet using an SVO or after market block.
FWIW,
Kirby
>
> On 7/15/14, 10:29 AM, "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift
> > <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A A A Before you spend any money on a build take the block and get
> > the
> > A A cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because it's a
> > stock block
> > A A doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.
> >
> > Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think much of
> > it.
> > Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
> > Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other side....
> > Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.A
> > You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay together
> > better.
> > I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and some good
> > old 4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
> > Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on it.
> > :-)
> > FWIW,
> > Kirby
> > A
> >
> > Better still if you are
> > A A spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an aftermarket
> > iron
> > A A block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are casting, then
> > you can
> > A A increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the fastest guy
> > on the
> > A A bench.
> > A A Julian
> > A A Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
> > A A From: [2]boyd411 at gmail.com
> > A A To: [3]cengles at cox.net
> > A A CC: [4]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
> >
> > Chuck,
> > I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged crank, shot
> > peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high quality
> > roller
> > rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners melling oil
> > pump,
> > 180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters. And an IR
> > efi
> > system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation predicts
> > HP in
> > the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they thought 500
> > hp
> > was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have heard of
> > stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious to know
> > if
> > there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to exceed.
> > (
> > Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but how much
> > can
> > the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so that the
> > block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve something like
> > one
> > of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this makes my
> > question more clear.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles <[5]cengles at cox.net>
> > wrote:
> > > Dear Boyd,
> > >
> > >
> > > A A A A A Oh, boy. A An opinion question.................
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > A A A A A See below.
> > >
> > > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit for a
> >
> > > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal displacement?
> > No A over
> >
> > > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers, cam,
> > > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing, strongest
> > possible
> > > rotating assembly.
> > > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp, 600 hp
> > higher?
> >
> > > If it is possible to reach A these HP numbers while not exceeding
> > 7000 rpm
> >
> > > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > 1) A Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of details. A
> > Block
> >
> > > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or drag
> > racing,
> > > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > 2) A New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block, reasonable
> > 4V quench
> >
> > > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake manifold and
> > a
> >
> > > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do? A Well,
> > it
> > > depends. A It depends on the application. A It depends on the
> > machinist and
> > > the engine builder. A I am not an engine expert, but I have built
> > four
> >
> > > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making plans
> > for the
> >
> > > next one. A Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine with stock
> > block,
> > > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits. A Rpm max about 6000
> > before
> > > valve float. A More attention to detail can result in a 485 hp
> > engine and a
> > > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float. A The current engine with the
> > same
> >
> > > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more expensive
> > valve
> >
> > > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm limit. A
> > The cost
> > > goes up with HP and rpm limit. A The higher goal you set will
> > require
> > > higher dollars.
> > >
> > > 3) A I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam, high
> > compression
> >
> > > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life span
> > numbers
> > > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, A Chuck Engles
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > A A _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
> > Managed
> > A A by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [6]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A [7]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [8]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> >References
> >
> > 1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
> > 2. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> > 3. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> > 5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> >DeTomaso mailing list
> >DeTomaso at poca.com
> >http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Will Kooiman
<[1]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
I agree.
500HP is probably a safe limit and I donA^1t know, 6,000 RPM - on a
stock
block, built right. A Sure you can go higher, but it is gambling at
a point.
The original 377 stroker that I built back in 1998 turned 7000 rpm +
for many, many years.
It was my drive to work car.
I think Dave Bell called it the 'indestructible Cleveland stroker' or
something like that one time.
The thing was... it was probably only 450HP or so. When I dyno'd it on
a chassis dyno, it peaked at 366HP at the rear wheels.
Probably the reason it lasted so long....
Each time I've tried to go over 500HP, I've broken something with a
Cleveland.
I know you can do it, but it's so much easier on your peace of mind and
your wallet using an SVO or after market block.
FWIW,
Kirby
A
On 7/15/14, 10:29 AM, "Kirby Schrader" <[2]kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
wrote:
> A On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Julian Kift
> A <[1][3]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A A A A Before you spend any money on a build take the block
and get
> A A the
> A A A A A cylinder wall thickness sonic checked. Just because
it's a
> A A stock block
> A A A A A doesn't guarantee it is free of core shift.
>
> A Indeed. I had heard this stated for many years and didn't think
much of
> A it.
> A Until I had a completely stock Cleveland block bored out .020".
> A Three cylinders had daylight showing through to the other
side....
> A Since then, I've been a convert and started using SVO blocks.A
> A You end up building a 'Clevor', but they certainly stay
together
> A better.
> A I had a Keith Craft engine built with an iron SVO block and
some good
> A old 4V iron heads. It's 393ci and did 544HP on the dyno.
> A Very drive-able and I feel much more relaxed about beating on
it.
> A :-)
> A FWIW,
> A Kirby
> A A
>
> A A Better still if you are
> A A A A A spending $$ on all those other parts why not buy an
aftermarket
> A A iron
> A A A A A block of the likes that MME or Tod Buttermore are
casting, then
> A A you can
> A A A A A increase the HP number somewhat and for sure be the
fastest guy
> A A on the
> A A A A A bench.
> A A A A A Julian
> A A A A A Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:57:31 -0400
> A A A A A From: [2][4]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A A A A To: [3][5]cengles at cox.net
> A A A A A CC: [4][6]detomaso at poca.com
> A A A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cleveland HP limits
>
> A Chuck,
> A I am working on a build using a sound 4 bolt main, forged
crank, shot
> A peened and polished rods , Ported A3 heads built with high
quality
> A roller
> A rockers a springs, Forged flat top springs, Arp fasteners
melling oil
> A pump,
> A 180 degree headers, a cust ground HR roller cam and lifters.
And an IR
> A efi
> A system. The reason for my question is because the dynomation
predicts
> A HP in
> A the 550- 600 range @ 6500 rpm. Someone said to me that they
thought 500
> A hp
> A was the safe limit for a stock Cleveland iron block. I have
heard of
> A stroked Cleveland iron blocks making over 600 hp so was curious
to know
> A if
> A there was an accepted HP limit that one would be advised not to
exceed.
> A (
> A Like piston speed) Not how much HP or torque CAN be made but
how much
> A can
> A the block withstand (assuming you are using the best parts so
that the
> A block would fail before the rotating assembly or a valve
something like
> A one
> A of the mains letting go or the engine exploding. I hope this
makes my
> A question more clear.
>
> A On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Charles Engles
<[5][7]cengles at cox.net>
> A wrote:
> A > Dear Boyd,
> A >
> A >
> A > A A A A A A A A A A Oh, boy. A A An opinion
question.................
> A >
> A >
>
> A > A A A A A A A A A A See below.
> A >
> A > "Greetings Pantera brethren ! Is there an accepted HP limit
for a
>
> A A > Cleveland four bolt main iron block at it's normal
displacement?
> A A No A over
>
> A > bore, stock stroke, natural aspirated. Using heads , headers,
cam,
> A > ignition, all the trick valve work , porting polishing,
strongest
> A possible
> A > rotating assembly.
> A > Is there a limit that one should not exceed? 550hp, 575 hp,
600 hp
> A higher?
>
> A A > If it is possible to reach A these HP numbers while not
exceeding
> A A 7000 rpm
>
> A > what is the DO NOT EXCEED LIMIT?"
> A >
> A >
>
> A A > 1) A Answer: it all depends on dozens and dozens of
details. A
> A A Block
>
> A > quality, budget, application for street, track days or ORR or
drag
> A racing,
> A > carb v. efi., dollars, etc, etc.
> A >
> A >
>
> A A > 2) A New question: Given a reasonable Cleveland block,
reasonable
> A A 4V quench
>
> A > heads, stock rotating assembly, new pistons, new intake
manifold and
> A a
>
> A A > reasonable budget (what does that mean?) what can you do?
A A Well,
> A A it
> A A > depends. A A It depends on the application. A It depends
on the
> A A machinist and
> A A > the engine builder. A I am not an engine expert, but I
have built
> A A four
>
> A > engines and I am about to finish another one and I am making
plans
> A for the
>
> A A > next one. A A Facts: a rookie can build a 400 hp engine
with stock
> A A block,
> A A > crank, rods and heads plus after market bits. A Rpm max
about 6000
> A A before
> A A > valve float. A A More attention to detail can result in a
485 hp
> A A engine and a
> A A > 6,500 rpm limit before valve float. A The current engine
with the
> A A same
>
> A > formula but pushed a little harder with a lighter and more
expensive
> A valve
>
> A A > train is expected to see 500 or so HP with a 7000 rpm
limit. A
> A A The cost
> A A > goes up with HP and rpm limit. A A The higher goal you set
will
> A A require
> A A > higher dollars.
> A A >
> A A > 3) A I expect that given solid lifters, an aggressive cam,
high
> A A compression
>
> A > ratio, race gas, EFI and a relatively short functional life
span
> A numbers
> A > north of 550 hp and 7000 rpm can be obtained.
> A >
> A >
>
> A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Warmest regards, A
Chuck Engles
> A >
> A >
> A >
> A A A A _______________________________________________ Detomaso
Forum
> A Managed
> A A A A by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [6][8]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A A [7][9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [8][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A [9][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>References
>
> A 1. mailto:[12]julian_kift at hotmail.com
> A 2. mailto:[13]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A 3. mailto:[14]cengles at cox.net
> A 4. mailto:[15]detomaso at poca.com
> A 5. mailto:[16]cengles at cox.net
> A 6. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 7. [18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 8. mailto:[19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 9. [20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
>DeTomaso mailing list
>[21]DeTomaso at poca.com
>[22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
2. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
4. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
7. mailto:cengles at cox.net
8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
13. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
14. mailto:cengles at cox.net
15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. mailto:cengles at cox.net
17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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