[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Charles McCall
charlesmccall at gmail.com
Fri Jul 18 07:01:43 EDT 2014
I also have a mechanical gauge installed because I didn't like what my
stock pressure gauge was telling me. It was doing weird things that I
assumed couldn't be possible, such as wildly fluctuating pressure. In fact
my real pressure is rock solid as indicated by the mechanical gauge.
Another data point that the stock gauge may get flaky on you and lead you
to incorrect assumptions
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Andy May <andymay24 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Don't make the assumption that your oil gauge indication bears any
> relationship to what oil pressure you actually have at the engine!
> Speaking from personal experience, the problem may very well be the oil
> pressure sender. Mine was jumping around all over - especially when hot
> - which I could not understand with my reasonably freshly built engine.
> I replaced the electrical sender (a standard ford part) and also fitted
> an additional mechanical gauge via a T-connector just as a means of
> "positive checking" as I had lost confidence in the electrical one.
> Result - 55psi normal running and 40-45psi hot idle on the mechanical
> gauge and a much happier owner! The standard pantera gauge continues to
> present an approximation of pressure, but at least now its a pretty
> stable approximation!
>
> I suggest you hook up a mechanical gauge and check your oil pressure
> with this before you tear into the motor.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Andy
>
> On Jul 18, 2014 9:47 AM, "Robert Stroj" <[1]npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Sean,
> Yes, as you pointed out it is a real problem that I don't have the
> specs.
> As well, looking at the price, it seems to me that they might not be
> Solid Rollers; that price looks like it would fit to regular solid
> flat tappet lifters?
> I got all the original receipts with the car and tried to call
> vendor of the cam to find out if he might have somewhere any spec,
> but based on receipt it was not possible to find anything...it is 10
> years past since they were purchased; same was the situation with
> the head, so I do not know which SS valves are used, spring rates or
> which roller rockers are installed.
> I guess, first I need to check if my bearings are OK as I really
> have a bad feeling with oil pressure showing really low when engine
> is hot.
> Is there any way to check that short of pulling the motor out and
> opening the bottom; guess not?
> Thanks, Robert
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Korb [mailto:[2]spkorb at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
> To: [3]detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> It's hard to tell with a custom grind Isky. A They make a lot of
> pretty interesting flat tappet camshafts but I'm not familiar with
> their roller line. A If you don't have a cam card you really should
> make your own and get the specification. A A degree wheel and
> removing the front accessories and water pump is kind of a pain but
> it really needs to be done.
> That said, you can find TDC without doing all that work. A Just pull
> a spark plug on #1 and find it. A Make sure it matches your harmonic
> balancer. A It does sound like timing since you are having trouble
> starting it when it is hot,
> My stock 1971 motor made 255HP at the wheels. A Hydraulic stock
> grind on the camshaft and 10.5:1 compression with stock heads. A The
> CHI heads *could* give you more power but unless you know your
> camshaft will take advantage of it, the stock heads are already
> pretty darn good and you won't see that much with just a head swap.
> A If you are running something like 0.055 lift or better with
> aggressive duration, you should really be getting more power and it
> would be carburetor and timing to check next.
> Oh hey! A You're running solid rollers? A Maybe your tappet
> clearance should be adjusted. A If they are running really loose
> that would rob you of a lot of power. A It would make a lot of noise
> too.
> sean
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Robert Stroj <[4]npdrs at maui.net>
> wrote:
> > A A Hi,
> >
> >
> > A A First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for delay
> on coming
> > A A back; was two weeks traveling without the internet
> connection.
> >
> >
> > A A My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a A 4
> bolt 351C,
> > A A here are all the engine A spec as I got them from a previous
> owner:
> >
> >
> > A A Engine
> >
> >
> > A A CUI A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 351 Cleveland
> 4V
> >
> >
> > A A Heads A : A A A A A Australian (3) valve aluminum
> polished heads
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
> A ($1,995)
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
> ($175)
> >
> >
> > A A Intake A : A A A A A Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
> ($175)
> >
> >
> > A A Carb A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 780 CFM Holley
> 4-barrel carburetor
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
> A ($512.99 Inc Shipping)
> >
> >
> > A A Cable A : A A A A A PI MotorSport Throttle Cable ($155)
> >
> >
> > A A Valves : A A A A A Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake valves
> ($900)
> >
> >
> > A A Cam A A A A A A A A : A A A A A ISKY Solid
> Roller Camshaft with Lifters
> > A A ($275)
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Custom
> grind
> >
> >
> > A A Rockers A A A A A : A A A A A Roller Rockers ($275)
> >
> >
> > A A Chain A : A A A A A Duel Roller Chain ($57)
> >
> >
> > A A Exhaust A A A A A : A A A A A GTS Coated Headers
> and Mufflers ($850)
> >
> >
> > A A Water Pump: A Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
> >
> >
> > A A Radiator A A A A A : A A A A A Aluminum Radiator
> Assembly Pantera
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
> A Performance ($1,108.90)
> >
> >
> > A A Starter : A A A A A High Performance Starter ($165)
> >
> >
> > A A Oil Pan A A A A A A : A A A A A 10 Quart oil pan
> with windage tray
> > A A ($400)
> >
> >
> > A A Ignition A A A A A A : A A A A A Mallory Unilite
> Distributor, Mallory
> > A A Coil, Mallory Spark
> >
> > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Plug
> Wires ($280)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A A What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies
> on idle
> > A A after being driven hard and then it is really hard to start;
> once did
> > A A not start at all.
> >
> > A A When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery
> would be
> > A A low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is that
> bearings
> > A A could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it increases
> the
> > A A friction inside the engine.
> >
> > A A The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it
> just jumps
> > A A between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
> >
> >
> > A A It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and
> will be
> > A A looking to see which are good parts that I could successfully
> reuse;
> > A A this is why Brent's motor configuration is really interesting
> as it
> > A A uses same heads and intake manifold.
> >
> >
> > A A I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using
> Mustang in
> > A A German Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to
> meet him
> > A A next week.
> >
> >
> > A A All the best, Robert
> >
> >
> > A A From: Pantdino [mailto:[5]pantdino at aol.com]
> > A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
> > A A To: [6]boyd411 at gmail.com
> > A A Cc: [7]npdrs at maui.net; [8]bjbstewart at yahoo.com;
> [9]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> >
> >
> >
> > A A "Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs
> and how the
> > A A car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A A HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the
> dyno guy
> > A A gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be
> taken with a
> > A A grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what
> someone else
> > A A gets on different dyno in a different city on a different day
> on a
> > A A chassis vs engine dyno etc
> >
> >
> > A A -----Original Message-----
> > A A From: Boyd Casey <[1][10]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> > A A To: Pantdino <[2][11]pantdino at aol.com>
> > A A Cc: npdrs <[3][12]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart
> <[4][13]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
> > A A detomaso <[5][14]detomaso at poca.com>
> > A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> >
> > A A Robert,
> >
> > A A Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that
> came with
> > A A your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the
> Cleveland
> > A A engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link
> explains
> > A A how to help determine what type of engine yours was
> > A A originally. [6]Cleveland guide A even though your engine has
> good heads
> > A A it may have low compression pistons. You will only know what
> you
> > A A actually have when you get inside your engine. In the
> meantime you can
> > A A do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders have
> close to
> > A A the same compression. You should also start with a good tune
> up. make
> > A A sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set
> correctly.
> > A A Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for your
> engine (
> > A A with a stock 351 ci displacement A and depending on your
> pistons
> > A A compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots of
> people
> > A A thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more harm
> then good
> > A A when it comes to losing power. A You also want to be sure
> your carb is
> > A A jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is
> like
> > A A navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can
> figure out
> > A A how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you
> have
> > A A before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP
> numbers are
> > A A just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way the
> engine
> > A A runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any
> dyne
> > A A numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car
> that revs up
> > A A quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that
> knows
> > A A Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure out
> what you
> > A A actually have and how to maximize it before you start
> throwing money at
> > A A it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland
> engines as
> > A A well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland engines.
> A Check out
> > A A Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also
> numerous
> > A A books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of
> free info on
> > A A various forums on he web for free!
> >
> > A A Good Luck!
> >
> > A A Boyd
> >
> >
> > A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
> > A A <[7][15]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> >
> > A A A It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve
> Wilkinson-- he
> > A A A said jetted for a Pantera.
> >
> > A A A -----Original Message-----
> > A A A From: Robert Stroj <[8][16]npdrs at maui.net>
> > A A A To: 'Brent Stewart' <[9][17]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
> detomaso
> > A A A <[10][18]detomaso at poca.com>
> >
> > A A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
> > A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> >
> > A A A Hi Brent,
> > A A A Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
> > A A A What carburetor are you using?
> > A A A Cheers,
> > A A A Robert
> >
> > A A A From: Brent Stewart
> [[1]mailto:[11][19]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
> >
> > A A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
> >
> > A A A To: Robert Stroj; [2][12][20]detomaso at poca.com
> >
> > A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> > A A A Hi Robert,
> > A A A I have the same CHI heads and intake. A Here are my build
> specs
> > A A incase
> > A A A you want to utilize those in an engine update:
> > A A A ENGINE SPECS:
> > A A A Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec
> sheet. A The
> > A A 351C
> > A A A based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM.
> A Here are
> > A A the
> > A A A details of the build:
> > A A A Parts list
> > A A A . A A A A SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
> > A A A . A A A A SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
> > A A A . A A A A Custom Ross Pistons
> > A A A . A A A A Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
> > A A A . A A A A Superformance Balancer
> > A A A . A A A A Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
> > A A A . A A A A Comp Cams Pushrods
> > A A A . A A A A Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
> > A A A . A A A A CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
> > A A A . A A A A CHI high-rise intake
> > A A A Build specs
> > A A A . A A A A Bore: 4.030
> > A A A . A A A A Crank: 3.850 9000 series
> > A A A . A A A A Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
> > A A A o A Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
> > A A A o A Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
> > A A A o A Lobe Separation: 112
> > A A A . A A A A Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
> >
> > A A A On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
> > A A <[1][3][13][21]npdrs at maui.net>
> >
> > A A A wrote:
> > A A A So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import
> procedures
> > A A and
> > A A A is now
> > A A A street legal in Europe/Germany!
> > A A A Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension
> feels very
> > A A A good to
> > A A A drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well
> (wilwood
> > A A A conversion),
> > A A A but there is something not right with the motor.
> > A A A Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft
> and
> > A A pistons.
> > A A A Some
> > A A A years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake
> system, SS
> > A A A valves,
> > A A A 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> > A A A When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely
> was not
> > A A feeling
> > A A A as
> > A A A 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after
> talking to
> > A A A person
> > A A A who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did
> not really
> > A A A feel as
> > A A A 300HP car...
> > A A A I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's
> garage and got
> > A A the
> > A A A following graph (please see the attached image); this are
> graphs for
> > A A A adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses
> between
> > A A A engine and
> > A A A wheels.
> > A A A What was really interesting is that he had a chance to
> test 2 other
> > A A A panteras
> > A A A recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using
> some
> > A A "special
> > A A A parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the
> other one was
> > A A A black
> > A A A GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany
> and was
> > A A built
> > A A A by
> > A A A Braun Motorsport:
> >
> >
> > A
> A [2][4][14][22]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
> a-gruppe-
> > A A 4-m-his
> >
> > A A A t-strass
> >
> > A
> A enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pag
> eNumb
> > A A A er=1&
> >
> > A
> A __lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrd
> er=DE
> > A A A SCEND
> >
> > A
> A ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreete
> xt=fa
> > A A A lse&m
> >
> > A
> A akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchIn
> Freet
> > A A A ext=f
> > A A A alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
> > A A A So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another
> rebuild
> > A A A pantera
> > A A A motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very
> nice 389HP;
> > A A A there is
> > A A A also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp
> but at much
> > A A A higher
> > A A A RPM.
> > A A A The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the
> power
> > A A curve
> > A A A is.
> > A A A So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be
> that it is
> > A A as
> > A A A simple as wrong cam choice?
> > A A A If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration
> someone could
> > A A A suggest
> > A A A that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got
> those?
> > A A A As well, I had something strange happen twice with the
> gearbox; it
> > A A got
> > A A A out
> > A A A of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this
> could be due
> > A A to
> > A A A any
> > A A A wrong linkage adjustment?
> > A A A Thanks, Robert
> > A A A _______________________________________________
> > A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >
> > A A A [3][5][15][23]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A
> [4][6][16][24]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A References
> > A A A 1. [7]mailto:[17][25]npdrs at maui.net
> > A A A 2.
> > A
> A [8][18][26]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
> ruppe-4-m
> > A A -hist-s
> > A A trass
> > A A A 3. [9]mailto:[19][27]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A 4.
> [10][20][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > A A _______________________________________________
> > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >
> > A A [11][21][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A
> A [12][22][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A References
> > A A A 1. mailto:[23][31]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
> > A A A 2. mailto:[24][32]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A A 3. mailto:[25][33]npdrs at maui.net
> > A A A 4.
> > A
> A [26][34]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
> pe-4-m-hi
> > A A s
> > A A A 5. mailto:[27][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A 6.
> [28][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A A 7. mailto:[29][37]npdrs at maui.net?
> > A A A 8.
> > A
> A [30][38]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
> pe-4-m-hi
> > A A st-strass
> > A A A 9. mailto:[31][39]DeTomaso at poca.com?
> > A A A 10.
> [32][40]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A A 11. mailto:[33][41]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A 12.
> [34][42]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A _______________________________________________
> > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> > A A [35][43]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A [36][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > References
> >
> > A A 1. mailto:[45]boyd411 at gmail.com
> > A A 2. mailto:[46]pantdino at aol.com
> > A A 3. mailto:[47]npdrs at maui.net
> > A A 4. mailto:[48]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> > A A 5. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A 6.
> >
> [50]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Inf
> ormation-/10000000001410755/g.html
> > A A 7. mailto:[51]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A 8. mailto:[52]npdrs at maui.net
> > A A 9. mailto:[53]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> > A 10. mailto:[54]detomaso at poca.com
> > A 11. mailto:[55]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> > A 12. mailto:[56]detomaso at poca.com
> > A 13. mailto:[57]npdrs at maui.net
> > A 14.
> [58]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> -his
> > A 15. mailto:[59]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 16. [60]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 17. mailto:[61]npdrs at maui.net
> > A 18.
> >
> [62]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> -hist-s
> > A 19. mailto:[63]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 20. [64]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 21. mailto:[65]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 22. [66]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 23. mailto:[67]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> > A 24. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
> > A 25. mailto:[69]npdrs at maui.net
> > A 26.
> [70]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> -his
> > A 27. mailto:[71]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 28. [72]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 29. mailto:[73]npdrs at maui.net
> > A 30.
> >
> [74]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> -hist-strass
> > A 31. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 32. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 33. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 34. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 35. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 36. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [81]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> >
> --
> Sean Korb [83]spkorb at spkorb.org [84]http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> #1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless. A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
> _______________________________________________
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 2. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
> 3. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 4. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 5. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
> 6. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 8. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 10. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
> 12. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 13. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 14. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 16. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 17. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 18. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 19. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 20. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 21. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 22. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
> 23. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 25. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 26. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> 27. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 31. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 33. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 34. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
> 35. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 37. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 38. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
> 39. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 40. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 41. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 42. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 43. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 45. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 46. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
> 47. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 48. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 50.
> http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
> 51. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 52. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 53. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 54. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 55. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 56. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 57. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 58. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
> 59. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 60. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 61. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 62.
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
> 63. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 64. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 65. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 67. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 69. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 70. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
> 71. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 72. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 73. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 74.
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 83. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> 84. http://www.spkorb.org/
> 85. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 86. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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-------------- next part --------------
I also have a mechanical gauge installed because I didn't like what my
stock pressure gauge was telling me. It was doing weird things that I
assumed couldn't be possible, such asA wildly fluctuating pressure. In
fact my real pressure is rock solid as indicated by the mechanical
gauge.
A
Another data point that the stock gauge may get flaky on you and lead
you to incorrect assumptions
A
A
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Andy May <[1]andymay24 at gmail.com>
wrote:
A A Robert,
A A Don't make the assumption that your oil gauge indication bears
any
A A relationship to what oil pressure you actually have at the
engine!
A A Speaking from personal experience, the problem may very well be
the oil
A A pressure sender. Mine was jumping around all over - especially
when hot
A A - which I could not understand with my reasonably freshly built
engine.
A A I replaced the electrical sender (a standard ford part) and
also fitted
A A an additional mechanical gauge via a T-connector just as a
means of
A A "positive checking" as I had lost confidence in the electrical
one.
A A Result - 55psi normal running and 40-45psi hot idle on the
mechanical
A A gauge and a much happier owner! The standard pantera gauge
continues to
A A present an approximation of pressure, but at least now its a
pretty
A A stable approximation!
A A I suggest you hook up a mechanical gauge and check your oil
pressure
A A with this before you tear into the motor.
A A Kind regards
A A Andy
A A On Jul 18, 2014 9:47 AM, "Robert Stroj" <[1][2]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
A A A Hi Sean,
A A A Yes, as you pointed out it is a real problem that I don't
have the
A A A specs.
A A A As well, looking at the price, it seems to me that they
might not be
A A A Solid Rollers; that price looks like it would fit to regular
solid
A A A flat tappet lifters?
A A A I got all the original receipts with the car and tried to
call
A A A vendor of the cam to find out if he might have somewhere any
spec,
A A A but based on receipt it was not possible to find
anything...it is 10
A A A years past since they were purchased; same was the situation
with
A A A the head, so I do not know which SS valves are used, spring
rates or
A A A which roller rockers are installed.
A A A I guess, first I need to check if my bearings are OK as I
really
A A A have a bad feeling with oil pressure showing really low when
engine
A A A is hot.
A A A Is there any way to check that short of pulling the motor
out and
A A A opening the bottom; guess not?
A A A Thanks, Robert
A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A From: Sean Korb [mailto:[2][3]spkorb at gmail.com]
A A A Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
A A A To: [3][4]detomaso at poca.com
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
A A A It's hard to tell with a custom grind Isky. A They make a
lot of
A A A pretty interesting flat tappet camshafts but I'm not
familiar with
A A A their roller line. A If you don't have a cam card you really
should
A A A make your own and get the specification. A A degree wheel
and
A A A removing the front accessories and water pump is kind of a
pain but
A A A it really needs to be done.
A A A That said, you can find TDC without doing all that work. A
Just pull
A A A a spark plug on #1 and find it. A Make sure it matches your
harmonic
A A A balancer. A It does sound like timing since you are having
trouble
A A A starting it when it is hot,
A A A My stock 1971 motor made 255HP at the wheels. A Hydraulic
stock
A A A grind on the camshaft and 10.5:1 compression with stock
heads. A The
A A A CHI heads *could* give you more power but unless you know
your
A A A camshaft will take advantage of it, the stock heads are
already
A A A pretty darn good and you won't see that much with just a
head swap.
A A A A If you are running something like 0.055 lift or better
with
A A A aggressive duration, you should really be getting more power
and it
A A A would be carburetor and timing to check next.
A A A Oh hey! A You're running solid rollers? A Maybe your tappet
A A A clearance should be adjusted. A If they are running really
loose
A A A that would rob you of a lot of power. A It would make a lot
of noise
A A A too.
A A A sean
A A A On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Robert Stroj
<[4][5]npdrs at maui.net>
A A A wrote:
A A A > A A A Hi,
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry
for delay
A A A on coming
A A A > A A A back; was two weeks traveling without the internet
A A A connection.
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is
a A 4
A A A bolt 351C,
A A A > A A A here are all the engine A spec as I got them from a
previous
A A A owner:
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Engine
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A CUI A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A
A A A A A 351 Cleveland
A A A 4V
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Heads A : A A A A A A A A A A Australian (3) valve
aluminum
A A A polished heads
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A
A A A A ($1,995)
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A
A A A A A A A A A Polish
A A A ($175)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Intake A : A A A A A A A A A A Polished aluminum
Hi-Rise ($525)
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A
A A A A A A A A A Polish
A A A ($175)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Carb A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A
A A A 780 CFM Holley
A A A 4-barrel carburetor
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A
A A A A ($512.99 Inc Shipping)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Cable A A : A A A A A A A A A A PI MotorSport
Throttle Cable ($155)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Valves : A A A A A A A A A A Stainless Steel
Exhaust/Intake valves
A A A ($900)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Cam A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A
A A A ISKY Solid
A A A Roller Camshaft with Lifters
A A A > A A A ($275)
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A A A Custom
A A A grind
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Rockers A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A A A
A Roller Rockers ($275)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Chain A A : A A A A A A A A A A Duel Roller Chain
($57)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Exhaust A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A A A
A GTS Coated Headers
A A A and Mufflers ($850)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Water Pump: A A Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Radiator A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A A A
A Aluminum Radiator
A A A Assembly Pantera
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A
A A A A Performance ($1,108.90)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Starter : A A A A A A A A A A High Performance
Starter ($165)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Oil Pan A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A A A
A 10 Quart oil pan
A A A with windage tray
A A A > A A A ($400)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A Ignition A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A A A A A
A Mallory Unilite
A A A Distributor, Mallory
A A A > A A A Coil, Mallory Spark
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A A A Plug
A A A Wires ($280)
A A A >
A A A >
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A What I am the most worried about is the thing that
car dies
A A A on idle
A A A > A A A after being driven hard and then it is really hard
to start;
A A A once did
A A A > A A A not start at all.
A A A >
A A A > A A A When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the
battery
A A A would be
A A A > A A A low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is
that
A A A bearings
A A A > A A A could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it
increases
A A A the
A A A > A A A friction inside the engine.
A A A >
A A A > A A A The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot
idling it
A A A just jumps
A A A > A A A between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A It all looks like I will need to do a complete
rebuild and
A A A will be
A A A > A A A looking to see which are good parts that I could
successfully
A A A reuse;
A A A > A A A this is why Brent's motor configuration is really
interesting
A A A as it
A A A > A A A uses same heads and intake manifold.
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A I just got a lead to person that had a racing team
using
A A A Mustang in
A A A > A A A German Turing championship and is willing to help;
hope to
A A A meet him
A A A > A A A next week.
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A All the best, Robert
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A From: Pantdino [mailto:[5][6]pantdino at aol.com]
A A A > A A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
A A A > A A A To: [6][7]boyd411 at gmail.com
A A A > A A A Cc: [7][8]npdrs at maui.net;
[8][9]bjbstewart at yahoo.com;
A A A [9][10]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
A A A >
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A "Torque really means a lot more but the way the
engine runs
A A A and how the
A A A > A A A car drives is a lot more important then any dyne
numbers. "
A A A >
A A A >
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP
number the
A A A dyno guy
A A A > A A A gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has
to be
A A A taken with a
A A A > A A A grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to
what
A A A someone else
A A A > A A A gets on different dyno in a different city on a
different day
A A A on a
A A A > A A A chassis vs engine dyno etc
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A > A A A From: Boyd Casey <[1][10][11]boyd411 at gmail.com>
A A A > A A A To: Pantdino <[2][11][12]pantdino at aol.com>
A A A > A A A Cc: npdrs <[3][12][13]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart
A A A <[4][13][14]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
A A A > A A A detomaso <[5][14][15]detomaso at poca.com>
A A A > A A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
A A A > A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
A A A >
A A A > A A A Robert,
A A A >
A A A > A A A Do you know if your 71 engine was the original
engine that
A A A came with
A A A > A A A your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around
90% of the
A A A Cleveland
A A A > A A A engines made were not "high performance" engines.
This link
A A A explains
A A A > A A A how to help determine what type of engine yours was
A A A > A A A originally. [6]Cleveland guide A even though your
engine has
A A A good heads
A A A > A A A it may have low compression pistons. You will only
know what
A A A you
A A A > A A A actually have when you get inside your engine. In
the
A A A meantime you can
A A A > A A A do a compression check to make sure all your 8
cylinders have
A A A close to
A A A > A A A the same compression. You should also start with a
good tune
A A A up. make
A A A > A A A sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing
is set
A A A correctly.
A A A > A A A Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big
for your
A A A engine (
A A A > A A A with a stock 351 ci displacement A and depending on
your
A A A pistons
A A A > A A A compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to
big. Lots of
A A A people
A A A > A A A thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much
more harm
A A A then good
A A A > A A A when it comes to losing power. A You also want to be
sure
A A A your carb is
A A A > A A A jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an
engine is
A A A like
A A A > A A A navigating. You have to know where you are , before
you can
A A A figure out
A A A > A A A how to get where you want to go. So you have to know
what you
A A A have
A A A > A A A before you can figure out how to get the most out of
it! HP
A A A numbers are
A A A > A A A just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the
way the
A A A engine
A A A > A A A runs and how the car drives is a lot more important
then any
A A A dyne
A A A > A A A numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response,
a car
A A A that revs up
A A A > A A A quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic
that
A A A knows
A A A > A A A Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well.
Figure out
A A A what you
A A A > A A A actually have and how to maximize it before you
start
A A A throwing money at
A A A > A A A it. There are lots of good books on how to build
Cleveland
A A A engines as
A A A > A A A well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland
engines.
A A A A Check out
A A A > A A A Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there
are also
A A A numerous
A A A > A A A books available at Amazon.com. You can also find
loads of
A A A free info on
A A A > A A A various forums on he web for free!
A A A >
A A A > A A A Good Luck!
A A A >
A A A > A A A Boyd
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via
DeTomaso
A A A > A A A <[7][15][16]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by
Steve
A A A Wilkinson-- he
A A A > A A A A A A said jetted for a Pantera.
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A > A A A A A A From: Robert Stroj <[8][16][17]npdrs at maui.net>
A A A > A A A A A A To: 'Brent Stewart'
<[9][17][18]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
A A A detomaso
A A A > A A A A A A <[10][18][19]detomaso at poca.com>
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
A A A > A A A A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad)
truth
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A Hi Brent,
A A A > A A A A A A Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
A A A > A A A A A A What carburetor are you using?
A A A > A A A A A A Cheers,
A A A > A A A A A A Robert
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A From: Brent Stewart
A A A [[1]mailto:[11][19][20]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A To: Robert Stroj;
[2][12][20][21]detomaso at poca.com
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad)
truth
A A A > A A A A A A Hi Robert,
A A A > A A A A A A I have the same CHI heads and intake. A Here
are my build
A A A specs
A A A > A A A incase
A A A > A A A A A A you want to utilize those in an engine update:
A A A > A A A A A A ENGINE SPECS:
A A A > A A A A A A Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided
the spec
A A A sheet. A The
A A A > A A A 351C
A A A > A A A A A A based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @
5800 RPM.
A A A A Here are
A A A > A A A the
A A A > A A A A A A details of the build:
A A A > A A A A A A Parts list
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft,
internally balanced
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Custom Ross Pistons
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Custom Bennett Racing
Hydraulic Roller Cam
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Superformance Balancer
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Crane Link Bar Hydraulic
Roller Lifters
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Comp Cams Pushrods
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Harland Sharp 4005 Roller
Rockers
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A CHI high-rise intake
A A A > A A A A A A Build specs
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Bore: 4.030
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Crank: 3.850 9000 series
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
A A A > A A A A A A o A A Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
A A A > A A A A A A o A A Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
A A A > A A A A A A o A A Lobe Separation: 112
A A A > A A A A A A . A A A A A A A Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
A A A > A A A <[1][3][13][21][22]npdrs at maui.net>
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A wrote:
A A A > A A A A A A So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all
the import
A A A procedures
A A A > A A A and
A A A > A A A A A A is now
A A A > A A A A A A street legal in Europe/Germany!
A A A > A A A A A A Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere,
suspension
A A A feels very
A A A > A A A A A A good to
A A A > A A A A A A drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes
work well
A A A (wilwood
A A A > A A A A A A conversion),
A A A > A A A A A A but there is something not right with the
motor.
A A A > A A A A A A Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original
crankshaft
A A A and
A A A > A A A pistons.
A A A > A A A A A A Some
A A A > A A A A A A years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads
and intake
A A A system, SS
A A A > A A A A A A valves,
A A A > A A A A A A 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
A A A > A A A A A A When driving the cart was pulling well, but
definitely
A A A was not
A A A > A A A feeling
A A A > A A A A A A as
A A A > A A A A A A 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of
expecting after
A A A talking to
A A A > A A A A A A person
A A A > A A A A A A who rebuild the engine as well as previous
owner...it did
A A A not really
A A A > A A A A A A feel as
A A A > A A A A A A 300HP car...
A A A > A A A A A A I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the
friend's
A A A garage and got
A A A > A A A the
A A A > A A A A A A following graph (please see the attached
image); this are
A A A graphs for
A A A > A A A A A A adjusted power on the flywheel after
recalculating looses
A A A between
A A A > A A A A A A engine and
A A A > A A A A A A wheels.
A A A > A A A A A A What was really interesting is that he had a
chance to
A A A test 2 other
A A A > A A A A A A panteras
A A A > A A A A A A recently; one was a client that had rebuilt
engine using
A A A some
A A A > A A A "special
A A A > A A A A A A parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec
while the
A A A other one was
A A A > A A A A A A black
A A A > A A A A A A GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale
in Germany
A A A and was
A A A > A A A built
A A A > A A A A A A by
A A A > A A A A A A Braun Motorsport:
A A A >
A A A >
A A A > A
A A A A
[2][4][14][22][23]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pant
er
A A A a-gruppe-
A A A > A A A 4-m-his
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A t-strass
A A A >
A A A > A
A A A A
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pag
A A A eNumb
A A A > A A A A A A er=1&
A A A >
A A A > A
A A A A
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrd
A A A er=DE
A A A > A A A A A A SCEND
A A A >
A A A > A
A A A A
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreete
A A A xt=fa
A A A > A A A A A A lse&m
A A A >
A A A > A
A A A A
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchIn
A A A Freet
A A A > A A A A A A ext=f
A A A > A A A A A A alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
A A A > A A A A A A So, finally, my engine did not even reach
250HP, another
A A A rebuild
A A A > A A A A A A pantera
A A A > A A A A A A motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera
did very
A A A nice 389HP;
A A A > A A A A A A there is
A A A > A A A A A A also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it
did 410hp
A A A but at much
A A A > A A A A A A higher
A A A > A A A A A A RPM.
A A A > A A A A A A The most impressive about the Braun car is how
smooth the
A A A power
A A A > A A A curve
A A A > A A A A A A is.
A A A > A A A A A A So, now I am wondering where to go from here;
could it be
A A A that it is
A A A > A A A as
A A A > A A A A A A simple as wrong cam choice?
A A A > A A A A A A If going to do a rebuild is there a good
configuration
A A A someone could
A A A > A A A A A A suggest
A A A > A A A A A A that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I
already got
A A A those?
A A A > A A A A A A As well, I had something strange happen twice
with the
A A A gearbox; it
A A A > A A A got
A A A > A A A A A A out
A A A > A A A A A A of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know
if this
A A A could be due
A A A > A A A to
A A A > A A A A A A any
A A A > A A A A A A wrong linkage adjustment?
A A A > A A A A A A Thanks, Robert
A A A > A A A A A
A _______________________________________________
A A A > A A A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A > A A A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A >
A A A > A A A A A A [3][5][15][23][24]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A A A
A A
A [4][6][16][24][25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.c
om
A A A > A A A References
A A A > A A A A A A 1. [7]mailto:[17][25][26]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A A A A A 2.
A A A > A
A A A A
[8][18][26][27]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera
-g
A A A ruppe-4-m
A A A > A A A -hist-s
A A A > A A A trass
A A A > A A A A A A 3. [9]mailto:[19][27][28]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A A A A 4.
A A
A [10][20][28][29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A >
A A A > A A A _______________________________________________
A A A > A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A > A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A >
A A A > A A A [11][21][29][30]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A
A A A A
[12][22][30][31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A A References
A A A > A A A A A A 1. mailto:[23][31][32]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
A A A > A A A A A A 2. mailto:[24][32][33]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A A A A 3. mailto:[25][33][34]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A A A A A 4.
A A A > A
A A A A
[26][34][35]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gr
up
A A A pe-4-m-hi
A A A > A A A s
A A A > A A A A A A 5. mailto:[27][35][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A A A A 6.
A A
A [28][36][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A A A A A 7. mailto:[29][37][38]npdrs at maui.net?
A A A > A A A A A A 8.
A A A > A
A A A A
[30][38][39]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gr
up
A A A pe-4-m-hi
A A A > A A A st-strass
A A A > A A A A A A 9. mailto:[31][39][40]DeTomaso at poca.com?
A A A > A A A A A 10.
A A
A [32][40][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A A A A 11. mailto:[33][41][42]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A A A 12.
A A
A [34][42][43]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A A _______________________________________________
A A A > A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A > A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A > A A A [35][43][44]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A
[36][44][45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A >
A A A > References
A A A >
A A A > A A A 1. mailto:[45][46]boyd411 at gmail.com
A A A > A A A 2. mailto:[46][47]pantdino at aol.com
A A A > A A A 3. mailto:[47][48]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A A 4. mailto:[48][49]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A A A > A A A 5. mailto:[49][50]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A 6.
A A A >
A A
A [50][51]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Fac
ts-Inf
A A A ormation-/10000000001410755/g.html
A A A > A A A 7. mailto:[51][52]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A A 8. mailto:[52][53]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A A 9. mailto:[53][54]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A A A > A A 10. mailto:[54][55]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 11. mailto:[55][56]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A A A > A A 12. mailto:[56][57]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 13. mailto:[57][58]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A 14.
A A
A [58][59]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m
A A A -his
A A A > A A 15. mailto:[59][60]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 16.
[60][61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 17. mailto:[61][62]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A 18.
A A A >
A A
A [62][63]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m
A A A -hist-s
A A A > A A 19. mailto:[63][64]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 20.
[64][65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 21. mailto:[65][66]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 22.
[66][67]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 23. mailto:[67][68]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A A A > A A 24. mailto:[68][69]detomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 25. mailto:[69][70]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A 26.
A A
A [70][71]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m
A A A -his
A A A > A A 27. mailto:[71][72]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 28.
[72][73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 29. mailto:[73][74]npdrs at maui.net
A A A > A A 30.
A A A >
A A
A [74][75]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m
A A A -hist-strass
A A A > A A 31. mailto:[75][76]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 32.
[76][77]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 33. mailto:[77][78]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 34.
[78][79]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A > A A 35. mailto:[79][80]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > A A 36.
[80][81]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A >
A A A > _______________________________________________
A A A >
A A A > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A >
A A A > DeTomaso mailing list
A A A > [81][82]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A > [82][83]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A >
A A A >
A A A --
A A A Sean Korb [83][84]spkorb at spkorb.org
[84][85]http://www.spkorb.org
A A A '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
A A A #1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get"
--Miller
A A A "Computers are useless. A They can only give you answers."
-P.
A A A Picasso
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [85][86]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A [86][87]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
A A 1. mailto:[88]npdrs at maui.net
A A 2. mailto:[89]spkorb at gmail.com
A A 3. mailto:[90]detomaso at poca.com
A A 4. mailto:[91]npdrs at maui.net
A A 5. mailto:[92]pantdino at aol.com
A A 6. mailto:[93]boyd411 at gmail.com
A A 7. mailto:[94]npdrs at maui.net
A A 8. mailto:[95]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A A 9. mailto:[96]detomaso at poca.com
A 10. mailto:[97]boyd411 at gmail.com
A 11. mailto:[98]pantdino at aol.com
A 12. mailto:[99]npdrs at maui.net
A 13. mailto:[100]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 14. mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com
A 15. mailto:[102]detomaso at poca.com
A 16. mailto:[103]npdrs at maui.net
A 17. mailto:[104]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 18. mailto:[105]detomaso at poca.com
A 19. mailto:[106]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 20. mailto:[107]detomaso at poca.com
A 21. mailto:[108]npdrs at maui.net
A 22.
[109]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
A 23. mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 24. [111]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 25. mailto:[112]npdrs at maui.net
A 26.
[113]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
A 27. mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 28. [115]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 29. mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 30. [117]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 31. mailto:[118]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 32. mailto:[119]detomaso at poca.com
A 33. mailto:[120]npdrs at maui.net
A 34.
[121]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-hi
A 35. mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 36. [123]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 37. mailto:[124]npdrs at maui.net
A 38.
[125]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-hi
A 39. mailto:[126]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 40. [127]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 41. mailto:[128]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 42. [129]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 43. mailto:[130]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 44. [131]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 45. mailto:[132]boyd411 at gmail.com
A 46. mailto:[133]pantdino at aol.com
A 47. mailto:[134]npdrs at maui.net
A 48. mailto:[135]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 49. mailto:[136]detomaso at poca.com
A 50.
[137]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-In
formation-/10000000001410755/g.html
A 51. mailto:[138]detomaso at poca.com
A 52. mailto:[139]npdrs at maui.net
A 53. mailto:[140]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 54. mailto:[141]detomaso at poca.com
A 55. mailto:[142]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 56. mailto:[143]detomaso at poca.com
A 57. mailto:[144]npdrs at maui.net
A 58.
[145]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-his
A 59. mailto:[146]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 60. [147]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 61. mailto:[148]npdrs at maui.net
A 62.
[149]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-hist-s
A 63. mailto:[150]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 64. [151]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 65. mailto:[152]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 66. [153]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 67. mailto:[154]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
A 68. mailto:[155]detomaso at poca.com
A 69. mailto:[156]npdrs at maui.net
A 70.
[157]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-his
A 71. mailto:[158]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 72. [159]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 73. mailto:[160]npdrs at maui.net
A 74.
[161]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m-hist-strass
A 75. mailto:[162]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 76. [163]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 77. mailto:[164]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 78. [165]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 79. mailto:[166]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 80. [167]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 81. mailto:[168]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 82. [169]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 83. mailto:[170]spkorb at spkorb.org
A 84. [171]http://www.spkorb.org/
A 85. mailto:[172]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 86. [173]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[174]DeTomaso at poca.com
[175]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
2. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
6. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
7. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
8. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
9. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
12. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
13. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
14. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
18. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
19. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
20. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
21. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
22. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
23. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
26. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
27. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
32. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
33. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
34. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
35. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
38. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
39. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
44. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
46. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
47. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
48. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
49. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
50. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
51. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Inf
52. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
53. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
54. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
55. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
56. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
57. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
58. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
59. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
62. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
63. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
64. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
65. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
66. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
67. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
68. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
69. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
70. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
71. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
74. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
75. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
76. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
77. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
78. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
79. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
80. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
81. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
82. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
83. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
84. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
85. http://www.spkorb.org/
86. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
88. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
89. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
90. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
91. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
92. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
93. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
94. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
95. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
96. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
97. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
98. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
99. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
100. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
101. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
102. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
103. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
104. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
105. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
106. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
107. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
108. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
109. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
110. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
111. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
112. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
113. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
114. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
115. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
116. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
117. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
118. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
119. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
120. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
121. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
122. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
123. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
124. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
125. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
126. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
127. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
128. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
130. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
131. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
132. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
133. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
134. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
135. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
136. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
137. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
138. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
139. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
140. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
141. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
142. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
143. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
144. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
145. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
146. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
147. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
148. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
149. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
150. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
151. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
152. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
153. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
154. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
155. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
156. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
157. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
158. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
159. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
160. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
161. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
162. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
163. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
164. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
165. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
166. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
167. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
168. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
169. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
170. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
171. http://www.spkorb.org/
172. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
173. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
174. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
175. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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