[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Boyd Casey
boyd411 at gmail.com
Wed Jul 16 15:03:33 EDT 2014
Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out some
professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
(or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and
torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try "
Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By
entering your Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes , bore
stroke etc. they can tell you what type of HP and torque you should be
getting. Next or maybe first you need to check that your valves are
adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already suggested you
check the compression of your cylinders to see that all eight match or are
close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be something relatively
simple or several things.So find out what you engine should be making, then
check that everything is in order. It's like navigating. You have to know
where you are in order to be able to figure out how to get to where you
want to go! Once you know what your engine should do and you check all the
basic systems you will have a clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just
take it o a good shop and throw money at the problem. But I think the
first step is to find out what kind of build you actually have. I recently
read that 90% of clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
Good Luck,
Boyd
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
>
> Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and trunion
> bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the mentioned
> spring.
>
>
> Best, Robert
>
>
> From: John Taphorn [mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
> To: Robert Stroj; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
> Regarding your ZF slipping out of third. I've rebuilt several of these
> boxes and can offer a little insight.
> First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
> Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead center
> north and south in the gate. If not adjust so it is centered.
> Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed or
> the ZF rebuilt? On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed the
> spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad. I installed it out of order and
> the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the detent.
> It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the third
> gear shifter shaft to slide out of place. I encountered the same
> problem that you are experiencing. It was easy to hold in place with
> my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
> It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet, required
> removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
> I hope it is one or two.
> JT
>
> On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
>
>
> So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and is
> now
> street legal in Europe/Germany!
> Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very good
> to
> drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood conversion),
> but there is something not right with the motor.
> Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons. Some
> years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS valves,
> 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling as
> 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to person
> who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really feel
> as
> 300HP car...
> I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
> following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
> adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between engine
> and
> wheels.
> What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
> panteras
> recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
> parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was black
> GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built by
> Braun Motorsport:
>
> [1]
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
>
> enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&
>
> __lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCEND
>
> ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&m
>
> akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=f
> alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
>
> So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild pantera
> motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP; there is
> also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much higher
> RPM.
> The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve is.
>
> So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
> simple as wrong cam choice?
> If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
> suggest
> that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
>
> As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got out
> of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to any
> wrong linkage adjustment?
>
> Thanks, Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [2]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [3]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1.
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 3. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out
some professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
A (or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and
torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try
"Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By
entering your A Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes ,
bore stroke etc. A they can tell you what type of HP and torque you
should be getting. A Next or A maybe first you need to check that your
valves are adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already
suggested you check the compression of your A cylinders to see that all
eight match or are close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be
something relatively simple or several things.So find out what you
engine should be making, then check that everything is in order. It's
like navigating. You have to know where you are in order to be ableA to
figure out how to get to where you want to go! Once you know what your
engine should do and you check all the basic systems you will have a
clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just take it o a good shop and
throw money at the A problem. But I think the first step is to find out
what kind of build you actually have. I recently read that 90% of
clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
Good Luck,
Boyd
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <[1]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
A A Hi,
A A Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
A A Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and
trunion
A A bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the
mentioned
A A spring.
A A Best, Robert
A A From: John Taphorn [mailto:[2]jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
A A To: Robert Stroj; [3]detomaso at poca.com
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
A A Regarding your ZF slipping out of third. A I've rebuilt several of
these
A A boxes and can offer a little insight.
A A First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
A A Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead
center
A A north and south in the gate. A If not adjust so it is centered.
A A Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed
or
A A the ZF rebuilt? A On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed
the
A A spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad. A I installed it out of order
and
A A the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the
detent.
A A It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the
third
A A gear shifter shaft to slide out of place. A I encountered the same
A A problem that you are experiencing. A It was easy to hold in place
with
A A my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
A A It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet,
required
A A removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
A A I hope it is one or two.
A A JT
A A On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[1][4]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-
hist-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[2][5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[3][6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
A A 1.
[7]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
t-strass
A A 2. mailto:[8]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A 3. [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[10]DeTomaso at poca.com
[11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
2. mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
3. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
4. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strassenzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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