[DeTomaso] Engine rebuild

Mon Feb 10 20:17:03 EST 2014

Hi Dan,

Thanks a lot for taking time to help!

Intake is CHI tall single plane.
Head is CHI 3V, but unsure which version; do not have access to the car and
cannot see the head size stamping on the side from the photos, but would
assume that is 185 version.

As the car is in shipping process it will take a month or two till I can
take photos of the rockers below the valve covers.
Anyway, here are attached a few of the photos from engine compartment I got.

I would really like to take this as a 2 stage project:

1) Make sure to update anything minor that would ensure trouble free
performance this coming summer.
I was told to check on distributor gear as it might be brass and show
significant wear...

2) Rebuild my motor over next winter with following objectives:
- Be able to rev it safely to 7000 Rpm and possibly surviving up to 8000 on
occasional track day; not sure if this is a realistic goal?
- Try to use as many components from my current motor (3v heads with SS
valves, roller rockers, intake manifold, ...) for the carburetor I really
wanted to go with Webber's, but checked with CHI and there is no manifold
available to make them work on CHI heads, so would just stay with 780 Holley
(or change to something else if you suggest)
- Possibly would consider buying a aluminum 351C block
http://www.racecrateengines.com/catalog/item/7152686/9232095.htm or Dart
351C version http://www.coasthigh.com/31345295-p/31345295.htm ; this would
add to cost considerably, but should save about 80lbs in weight.

I would really appreciate if you could give me some advice regarding this
two stages; first on what modifications you think would be good to do on
current engine to make it durable over next summer; what Rpm you think I
could safely run with current configuration? There is currently "high volume
water pump" installed; does this means I should still use 321C style
thermostat or 351W version?
I will have access to a dyno once car arrives to Europe, so will be able to
measure actual power and torque at rear wheels.

For the second stage, actual engine rebuild, would really appreciate to get
your opinion on best configuration using CHI heads, manifold, etc. and also
your experience with aluminum block...

Thanks a lot,

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel C Jones [mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 12:17 PM
To: Robert Stroj
Cc: POCA list
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine rebuild

> 351C 4 bolt block has been built in early 90's using stock crankshaft and
> flat top pistons; spoke to the owner who did this (he was a police
> department mechanic) and apparently he also did the oiling modification
(not
> sure if he installed restrictive bushings or what).

The most popular upgrade was the a high volume oil pump and there Moroso oil
restrictor kit.  If you have the HV pump, I strongly recommend you run a
flat bottom ("10 quart") Pantera oil pan.  It's easy to suck all the oil out
of the stock pan with a high volume/pressure pump.

> Oil Pan 10qt w pickup - $400

Good.

> From PI (2002): Aluminum CHI 3V heads-$1995, Valves SS Exh & Int (Use old
> springs, retainers and locks) - $900, CHI intake manifold - $525,

Is that intake the tall single plane?  The also offer a dual plane
(originally
it was Scott Cook's design but now they offer a different one).

> My problem is that I got all the invoices for all of this, but they are
very
> non specific:

Sadly what you have is more than most Pantera owners get.  Might be
worthwhile
to add an engine parts list to Chuck's registry.

> From Precision Proformance: Solid cams + lifters (custom grind) - $275,
Dual
> roller chain - $57
> From all this I think the cams might actually not be a roller but regular
> flat lifter; not sure about that.

For that price, the cam is a solid flat tappet cam.  Even back in 2002,
solid
roller lifters were much more expensive than that.

> Then, there is a much older invoice from 1997 from Pantera Specialists for
> Roller rockers - $275

Pop a valve cover off and take a picture when you get the chance.

> Now, I am taking the car to Europe and would like to make sure it performs
> well as well it is reliable.

> For this reason I am thinking to do a rebuild of the motor, but would
really
> like to use as many parts I already got (heads, intake, carburetor, high
> volume water pump...

Those all look like good parts.

> As well, I would be really ready to give up some torque for the ability to
> sustain higher RPM; so probably, if possible, would like to stay with 351
or
> a small, 377 stroker...

What maximum RPM would you like to turn?

Dan Jones

P.S. Sorry for the slow reply.  I've got about 10 people asking for
engine advice
and it takes me a while to make the rounds.

On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> thanks a lot for your e-mail!
>
> My situation is as following; I bought as really nice 1971 Pantera (with
-1
> ZF) which had following work done to the engine:
>
> 351C 4 bolt block has been built in early 90's using stock crankshaft and
> flat top pistons; spoke to the owner who did this (he was a police
> department mechanic) and apparently he also did the oiling modification
(not
> sure if he installed restrictive bushings or what).
>
> Next owner (a friend of the guy that built the motor originally) installed
> CHI 3V heads with high rise intake, 780 Holley carburetor and solid (I
think
> roller) cam/lifters and roller rockers.
>
> My problem is that I got all the invoices for all of this, but they are
very
> non specific:
>
> From PI (2002): Aluminum CHI 3V heads-$1995, Valves SS Exh & Int (Use old
> springs, retainers and locks) - $900, CHI intake manifold - $525, Oil Pan
> 10gt w pickup - $400
>
> From Precision Proformance: Solid cams + lifters (custom grind) - $275,
Dual
> roller chain - $57
>
> Then, there is a much older invoice from 1997 from Pantera Specialists for
> Roller rockers - $275
>
> From all this I think the cams might actually not be a roller but regular
> flat lifter; not sure about that.
> From all the documentation I know that originally my engine was built with
> 351C 4V iron heads, hydraulic lifters and Sig Erson 351C High Flow cams
(540
> lift intake and 550 lift exhaust), so that means it was working well with
> hydraulic lifters despite the oiling modification.
>
> Now, I am taking the car to Europe and would like to make sure it performs
> well as well it is reliable.
> For this reason I am thinking to do a rebuild of the motor, but would
really
> like to use as many parts I already got (heads, intake, carburetor, high
> volume water pump...
>
> As well, I would be really ready to give up some torque for the ability to
> sustain higher RPM; so probably, if possible, would like to stay with 351
or
> a small, 377 stroker...
>
> I would really appreciate if you might have a advice, or a "ready recipe"
> along this lines :)
>
> Thanks a lot, Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel C Jones [mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2014 5:15 PM
> To: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Cc: npdrs at maui.net; POCA list
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine rebuild
>
> Like Mike says, the info is scattered around the web as I don't have a
> personal website.  Here are a few engine builds we've done with
> different Cleveland style heads:
>
> 408C with iron 4V heads and 5500 RPM street hydraulic roller cam (made
> 468 HP through mufflers with Ford low rise dual plane and 483 HP with
> Holley Strip Dominator):
>
>  http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/5690015564
>  http://poca.com/pipermail/detomaso/2006-November/078498.html only
> made 468 HP at this point with dual plane Ford intake
>
> Mike Drew's 526HP @ 6000 RPM 408C with unported CHI-4V heads, ported
> Blue Thunder dual plane intake manifold and hydraulic roller cam:
>
>
>
http://www.gearheadtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?24678-Dyno-Results-for-a-S
> treet-Pantera-408C&highlight=Mike+Drew+408C
>
> 550+ HP 408C with TFS 2V CNC ported heads and street hydraulic roller
> peaking at 6000 RPM:
>
>
>
http://www.gearheadtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33187-Trick-Flow-PowerPort
> -Cleveland-heads
>
> Pantera 403C for my daily driver Pantera that made 569 HP peaking at
> 6350 RPM with old Ford Motorsport A3 aluminum high port Cleveland
> heads and hydraulic roller cam:
>
>
>
http://www.gearheadtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?30922-Pantera-403C-on-the-
> Dyno
>
> Kelly Coffield 602 HP @ 6400 RPM with lightly ported C302B heads,
> Roush intake, 10:1, Reed solid roller (during break-in, without
> tuning):
>
>  http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26
>
> Dave McLain 438 cubic inch Clevor with unported CHI 3V heads and
> intake, Demos street solid roller, 10.5:1 that made 666 HP at 6300 RPM
> and 627 ft-lbs through the mufflers for street Pantera:
>
>
>
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1297989634/Dyno+Results+from+An
> other+Pantera+Stroker
>
> The 351C dyno mule write ups are scattered about but shoould be in the
> email list archives.  Then there are the 351C FYI tips and the intake
> manifold list along with several other engine build write ups I should
> do but I just don't have the time right now.  Is there something
> specific you are looking for?
>
> Dan Jones
>
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