[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sean Korb spkorb at gmail.com
Sat Jan 12 23:54:44 EST 2013 

I thought that was just an indicator of how electronic fuel pumps
might have difficulty with conductive fuel.  But that sounds like a
reasonable way to measure the concentration of alcohol.  I would worry
that water contamination could throw it off though.  Probably not
enough to matter?

sean

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Patrick Orlando
<patrickf.orlando at gmail.com> wrote:
> It says right there in the first sentences that E85 is conductive, they
> measure the resistance of the fluid going thru the line and can tell it is
> not gasoline.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This article is awesome.  Lots and lots of tech.  Still doesn't
>> unravel the mystery of the sensor itself, but covers a *lot* of
>> ground.  All tech, no opinion that I can discern.
>>
>> http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/E85
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:07 PM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > It really does get worse gas mileage, but if that wasn't a concern,
>> > the increased octane could be attractive.  At the Petite Le Mans this
>> > year, using E85 was popular.  So was using isobutanol.  It's
>> > interesting playing with different fuels to see what they can do.  It
>> > also shows how lucky we are to have Gasoline :)
>> >
>> > How it works is a bit of a mystery.  CHecking this forum the readings
>> > are in Hz so... what's that about?  I could understand if the fuel
>> > ohmic resistance changed but honestly I'm lost without a mass spec.
>> > All the other sources say "flex fuel sensor" make it all tick and
>> > there's is a transfer function graph to be sure yours is calibrated.
>> > But no info on the physics itself.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?647997-Whats-the-wiring-pinout-for-a-ford-3-wire-flex-fuel-sensor
>> >
>> > sean
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Good site, but it doesn't explain how the sensor works.  It just says
>> >> it
>> >> is in the fuel line, and there is a microprocessor.
>> >>
>> >> BTW, I don't know what I was thinking, but I had it backward.  E85 is
>> >> 85%
>> >> ethanol, not 85% gasoline.  (or roughly 85% - per the article, it
>> >> varies
>> >> quite a bit).  It makes sense that E85 gets much worse gas mileage if
>> >> it
>> >> is 85% ethanol.
>> >>
>> >> On 1/12/13 9:32 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>This is a great article!
>> >>>
>> >>>http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
>> >>>
>> >>>sean
>> >>>
>> >>>On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
>> >>>wrote:
>> >>>> Well said.  Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>> >>>>And
>> >>>> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is
>> >>>> not
>> >>>> heavily subsidized over another.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
>> >>>> when
>> >>>> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>> >>>>His
>> >>>> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
>> >>>> content,
>> >>>> so it over adjusted.  I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
>> >>>>I'm
>> >>>> just repeating what he said.  It at least sounds reasonable.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?
>> >>>> I'm
>> >>>> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?
>> >>>> Specific
>> >>>> gravity?  I guess I could google it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>> >>>>>supplier concern.  Ethanol production has a very significant impact
>> >>>>> on
>> >>>>>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>> >>>>>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity.  Invest in us
>> >>>>>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>> >>>>>pretty happy with this.  The future in this space is pretty bright
>> >>>>>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>> >>>>>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>> >>>>>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>> >>>>>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>> >>>>>purchases in fuel markets.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>sean
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>> >>>>>wrote:
>> >>>>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
>> >>>>>> farm
>> >>>>>> subsidy area.    Being a driver not so much so.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>> >>>>>> percent.  Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>> >>>>>>Propane.
>> >>>>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>> >>>>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu.  Every time you
>> >>>>>> make 1
>> >>>>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially.  Government
>> >>>>>>subsidies
>> >>>>>> represent about  $4.18 per gallon.  The 131,00 BTUs used are from
>> >>>>>> oil
>> >>>>>> and it uses about 1/50th  of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
>> >>>>>>produce
>> >>>>>> a gallon of Ethanol.  Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>> >>>>>> input of fertilizer.    Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and
>> >>>>>>pesticides
>> >>>>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline,
>> >>>>>> LPG,
>> >>>>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to
>> >>>>>> grow
>> >>>>>>and
>> >>>>>> transport the corn.  Water input is also high but it is either
>> >>>>>>provided
>> >>>>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for
>> >>>>>> cattle
>> >>>>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> To late smarter,
>> >>>>>> jerry knotts
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol
>> >>>>>>> on
>> >>>>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>> >>>>>>>agree
>> >>>>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of
>> >>>>>>>corn
>> >>>>>>> based ethanol.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>> >>>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any
>> >>>>>>>> car.
>> >>>>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>> >>>>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>> >>>>>>>><arkoch at earthlink.net>
>> >>>>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>> >>>>>>>>>folks
>> >>>>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the
>> >>>>>>>>> Ethanol
>> >>>>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>  From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel,
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>only
>> >>>>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as
>> >>>>>>>>> generators
>> >>>>>>>>>or
>> >>>>>>>>> lawn equipment.  A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
>> >>>>>>>>>free
>> >>>>>>>>> fuel are:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfree
>> >>>>>>>>>ga
>> >>>>>>>>>s&hl=en
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Dick Koch
>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>>>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>--
>> >>>>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> >>>>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> >>>>>#1382
>> >>>>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> >>>>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>> >>>>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>DeTomaso mailing list
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> >>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> >>> #1382
>> >>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> >>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>> >>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>>
>> >>>DeTomaso mailing list
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> > '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> > #1382
>> > "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> > "Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>



-- 
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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