[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sean Korb spkorb at gmail.com
Sat Jan 12 23:23:30 EST 2013 

This article is awesome.  Lots and lots of tech.  Still doesn't
unravel the mystery of the sensor itself, but covers a *lot* of
ground.  All tech, no opinion that I can discern.

http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/E85

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:07 PM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
> It really does get worse gas mileage, but if that wasn't a concern,
> the increased octane could be attractive.  At the Petite Le Mans this
> year, using E85 was popular.  So was using isobutanol.  It's
> interesting playing with different fuels to see what they can do.  It
> also shows how lucky we are to have Gasoline :)
>
> How it works is a bit of a mystery.  CHecking this forum the readings
> are in Hz so... what's that about?  I could understand if the fuel
> ohmic resistance changed but honestly I'm lost without a mass spec.
> All the other sources say "flex fuel sensor" make it all tick and
> there's is a transfer function graph to be sure yours is calibrated.
> But no info on the physics itself.
>
> http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?647997-Whats-the-wiring-pinout-for-a-ford-3-wire-flex-fuel-sensor
>
> sean
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good site, but it doesn't explain how the sensor works.  It just says it
>> is in the fuel line, and there is a microprocessor.
>>
>> BTW, I don't know what I was thinking, but I had it backward.  E85 is 85%
>> ethanol, not 85% gasoline.  (or roughly 85% - per the article, it varies
>> quite a bit).  It makes sense that E85 gets much worse gas mileage if it
>> is 85% ethanol.
>>
>> On 1/12/13 9:32 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>This is a great article!
>>>
>>>http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
>>>
>>>sean
>>>
>>>On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>> Well said.  Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>>>>And
>>>> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is not
>>>> heavily subsidized over another.
>>>>
>>>> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse when
>>>> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>>>>His
>>>> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol content,
>>>> so it over adjusted.  I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
>>>>I'm
>>>> just repeating what he said.  It at least sounds reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?  I'm
>>>> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?  Specific
>>>> gravity?  I guess I could google it.
>>>>
>>>> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>>>>>supplier concern.  Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>>>>>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>>>>>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity.  Invest in us
>>>>>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>>>>>pretty happy with this.  The future in this space is pretty bright
>>>>>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>>>>
>>>>>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>>>>>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>>>>>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>>>>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>>>>>purchases in fuel markets.
>>>>>
>>>>>sean
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the farm
>>>>>> subsidy area.    Being a driver not so much so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>>>>>> percent.  Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>>>>>>Propane.
>>>>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>>>>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu.  Every time you make 1
>>>>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially.  Government
>>>>>>subsidies
>>>>>> represent about  $4.18 per gallon.  The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>>>>>> and it uses about 1/50th  of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
>>>>>>produce
>>>>>> a gallon of Ethanol.  Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>>>>>> input of fertilizer.    Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and
>>>>>>pesticides
>>>>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline, LPG,
>>>>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> transport the corn.  Water input is also high but it is either
>>>>>>provided
>>>>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for cattle
>>>>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To late smarter,
>>>>>> jerry knotts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>>>>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>>>>>>>agree
>>>>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of
>>>>>>>corn
>>>>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>>>>>>>><arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>>>>>>>>>folks
>>>>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>>>>>>>>>only
>>>>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators
>>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>> lawn equipment.  A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
>>>>>>>>>free
>>>>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfree
>>>>>>>>>ga
>>>>>>>>>s&hl=en
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>>>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>>>>>#1382
>>>>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>>>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso



-- 
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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